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Maxwell Smart
Date registered: Dec 1899
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| RE: G's and the environment...
4x4abc - 5/19/2007 1:00 AM
Max,
"I grew up playing in the wilderness and I want my grandchildren to be able to do the same...." is an argument that I hear a lot. And I agree in the sense that "Wouldn't be wonderful if (some of) the next generation could enjoy wilderness and solitude?"
However, just by glancing at the interest of kids today - they are more interested in playing computer games than paying attention to your friggin wilderness talk. Your grandchildren might even care less - let alone know what wilderness is. Sad, but the indicators don't show much future for wilderness.
Take your kids every possible weekend and you might have a chance.
Well seeing as we don't have a TV, my kids have got the tent sent up in our living room and are sleep in it (I only meant to air it out) and the older one has finally grasped the notion of recycling; I'm hoping (rather praying) that they are off to a good start. But unfortunately only time will tell. But from what I am seeing there are more kids concerned about the environment than adults.
I can't remember where, but somewhere you posted about people being irresponsible off road and causing (or being blamed for) erosion and all the other woes. Well I come from a MTB background from a time when they were just starting to break on to the scene and most people who took their bikes off road still rode cyclo-cross. I watch as the sport grew and our local authorities decided that their were too many MTBs on the trails causing erosion. Not only that but there were too many riders just being yahoos and scaring hikers. The decision was to limit what trails we could ride on so as to minimise impact.
The ironic thing was under the new legislation bikes were not allowed on the most difficult trails but allowed on the easy rolling trails. These were the very same trails that most hikers would stick too as they were easier walking. What it meant was that almost no one used the more difficult trails (although I must admit it never really stopped us) and there were still problems with MTBs scaring hikers – but now it was worse as they were just concentrated on a few trails and were also riding trails where they could ride much more aggressively… That’s progress.
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Maxwell Smart
Date registered: Dec 1899
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| Re: G's and the environment...
dai - 5/19/2007 3:03 AM
Agent 86, I don't think there is worry that everyone will be using WVO or even vegetable oil. Most vehicles are gas powered, diesel heads are a stubborn minority. I think it is great that there are refineries popping up to take the huge volume of spent cooking oil and turning it into Bio diesel. Here in Oregon there is a big push for this and many municipal busses are running bio diesel. There is a potato chip maker called Kettle Foods that is using pure oils and then making sure that the oil coming out of the factory goes into bio diesel. They make a lot of chips and use a lot of oil. Their products are nationally and perhaps internationally distributed. There are chains of fast food stores like Burgerville that use high quality oils and do the same thing. Even conventional fast food places are moving away from hydrogenated oils and are using pure oils. Most people wouldn't want to go through the hassel of making fuel out of waste oil. It is a direct connection to making the vehicle go that takes effort. We don't have a TV. I make the time to filter oil and pay attention to this forum.
-Dai
I don't think it would be that unrealistic in Europe - especially due to the wide spread use of diesel and cost of it. But I was actually referring to a future scenario where (if) it was taken up by the masses. It could never truly be a fossil diesel substitute.
Now all the Hydrogen cars that BMW and Lexus are releasing for sale in 2008 are intriguing.... |
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UberXY
Date registered: Dec 1899
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| Re: G's and the environment...
Interesting conversation, and it underscores the huge differences of opinions on this issue. I am siding with the vast majority of the data.
I do 95% of my driving within 30 miles of home, and I do it in a 4000lb 400HP car, which is fun but basically ridiculous. I am a computer guy and a car guy, and have looked with interest at the various hybrids, but while they all seem pretty low tech to me; however, I am glad to see them, and glad that people are paying to beta test the technology.
What I would like to see in a hybrid is this:
1. it has a motor at each wheel, preferably motor-in-hub.
2. it has Li-ion batteries, or better.
3. It has a constant velocity diesel or mini-turbine powered generator.
4. It does not have a transmission of any kind.
5. It does not have brakes - it uses reverse current to the electric motors.
6. It is made in Germany.
7. It has a standard house plug for overnight charging.
8. It takes serious advantage of modern materials technology to reduce weight.
9. It is upgradeable.
10. It seats five.
Tesla is the closest thing out there, but still falls way short. With Porsche being primarily an R&D company these days, I hope they are working on this technology.
I agree with the contention that cars consume more energy on the assembly line than they do during their driving life, but it's a two edge sword: maybe we should all be driving 20 year old cars on the one hand, but on the other, 20 year old cars pollute a magnitude more than new ones. Perhaps GMs interest in modularized construction may help cars become upgradeable and stay on the road longer and cleaner.
Steve
00 M5
02 G500
84 Porsche Carrera
98 E320
64 Porsche 356C race
2005 R1150RT
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4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| RE: G's and the environment...
Jonathan,
I know a few of the few as well and I myself have been living an extremely low impact life for a long time, plus I have been teaching low impact driving for 20 years - its the many clueless, ignorant, defensive otheres that I am worried about.
Here is the trash I produced the last 7 months (everything else has been recycled or used in the garden) - in other places I might even be able to recycle the glass, but no such luck in Mexico.
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4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| Re: G's and the environment...
Steve,
that hybrid you are after has been built in 1900 by Ferdinand Porsche for the Austrian truck company Lohner. Hub motors, diesel powered generator - seats 5
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4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| RE: G's and the environment...
Max,
I have been complaining about the same process in 4-wheeling - by closing off trails and concentrating a higher number of vehicles (looks like we have a few more every year) onto a smaller number of trails/roads more "wear" will be evident. |
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Maxwell Smart
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
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| RE: G's and the environment...
4x4abc - 5/19/2007 2:56 PM
Here is the trash I produced the last 7 months (everything else has been recycled or used in the garden) - in other places I might even be able to recycle the glass, but no such luck in Mexico.
And most of that is recyclable given the facilities. Very commendable. Unfortunately we are not at that stage yet because
1) we have no facilities for composting (the vast majority) of our waste and for some reason the city does collect compost on every street in our area but not ours......
2) plastic recycling (a sad necessity of living an Urban life) is also sadly lacking
STEVE,
There are some other interesting things going on out there - though not quite at the level you're discussing. In addition to the Tesla and for those with deep pockets there is the Venturi electric (which would trounce on most sports cars out there) and there are the Hydrogen vehicles which are being released (at least in Europe next year). Of course the issue remains on where do you get the fuel....
The notion of an upgradeable (lego?) car is very cool. Really we should learn more from F1 in that respect. A completely modular car where you could upgrade would be quite cool. I did see something once (can't remember manufacturer but it might of been one of the big US ones) produced an alternative powered (hydrogen?) chasis for which you could purchase different bodies according to your needs. The bodies were easily swappable so you would have one engine but both an SUV and sports car in the garage. It also could let you swap driving positions from LHD to RHD just by sliding the steering wheel across.
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4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| RE: G's and the environment...
major draw back of hydrogen is that you need a lot of energy to produce it - so far we are pretty short on feasable energy sources. So far only Iceland (with abundant cheap energy) has a noticeable number of hydrogen cars. |
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UberXY
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
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| Re: G's and the environment...
4x4abc - 5/19/2007 10:07 AM
Steve,
that hybrid you are after has been built in 1900 by Ferdinand Porsche for the Austrian truck company Lohner. Hub motors, diesel powered generator - seats 5
Awesome, thanks. It's just the Porsche I've been looking for.... 
Steve |
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jcaine
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
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| RE: G's and the environment...
4x4abc - 5/19/2007 12:06 PM
major draw back of hydrogen is that you need a lot of energy to produce it - so far we are pretty short on feasable energy sources. So far only Iceland (with abundant cheap energy) has a noticeable number of hydrogen cars.
GIANT companies like big oil and power co's have to get in the game... I beleive a few of them are in earnest but keeping it quiet for now... as with most anything volume production wiill lower the cost... here in California we have amazing potential in the use of the sea, sun, and wind... where my ranch is (tehachapi CA) there is already the largest wind farm in (I beleive) the world and California Edison has recently announced an increase in wind production of at least 65%... next to that is the barren and hot Mojave desert (note: I drive by a new housing track, smack in the middle of the hot, dusty, windy desert... not a single solar panel or windmill in sight... smart?) where more wind and solar farms are planned... CA Edison has promised 20% of their energy production will be from natural resources by 2010... pretty awesome I think... of course people like us who like to be outdoors might say they're going to wreck the environment in the process but so far it's been done by them with care and great consideration to placement and impact on the land... |
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Jonathan Joseph
Expert
Date registered: Oct 2006
Location: Charleston, South Carolina
Vehicle(s): 2004 G55
Posts: 1538
| RE: G's and the environment...
Harald,
You must buy your tequila in recyclable plastic bottles?
Thats an impressively small pile, way to go.
Jonathan |
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4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| RE: G's and the environment...
Well Joshua, you reminded me of a point that I wanted to make earlier - houses in the desert. Like in Arizona with a growth rate of cancer.
Wind and solar will not satisfy the AC power demand theses houses have. And since nobody is building small houses any longer the demand of energy is truly ridiculous. I am tempted to compare that to your G55 argument - but I'll leave that alone.
My point is - can we afford to constantly build more houses in the desert and why does everyone now need a 4000 sqft house? And I am not just talking. My Beverly Hills house had 2100 sqft. My new house in La Paz has 680. No TV, no living room (I'd rather be outside) no kitchen, do the cooking outside - just a comfortable bedroom, suitable office and cozy bathroom.
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JamesG
Regular
Date registered: May 2006
Location: Conifer, Colorado
Vehicle(s): 2011 G550, 2000 L.C.,1997 L.C.1987 FJ60
Posts: 98
| RE: G's and the environment...
I didn't have time until tonight to do any fact checking...
just google IPCC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change... an international consortium of 2000 of the worlds most renowned scientists who just issued the most comprehensive report ever on climate change... not refuted by a single reputable scientist... no left or right wing agenda... just scientific fact with tons of back up data...
or "government report on climate change" and you can read till the cows come home... draw your own conclusions.
jcaine,
I read the Govt report before it was released, FYI. The number of scientists you espouse is impressive and I am sure they are all quite competent, but the research is open ended, it does not stop when these guys go home. There is a trend but no conclusion. It is easy to google just about anything, so believe what you want. I noticed by the way the number of scientists you mentioned doubled to 2000. Also the IPCC is one reason the US did not sign the KYOTO agreement.
It is interesting to note that the US made all of the mistakes these third world toilets are making and turned it around. Remember the Indian in the canoe with the tear? One reason industry moves to a country is less regulation...path of least resistance.
Great conversation except for an occasional emotional transgression. This would be boring if we all agreed on every point. As it stands now, my SUV, I plan to buy another (2008 G), is compliant with all federal environmental law so it is legal to let it idle until the tank runs dry. Will I? No, it is wasteful and it pollutes. I know, I get it. In the end change will come about by legislating behavior, and by the way, it is always, always about the money  |
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dai
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
| Re: G's and the environment...
Change can come about by making small behavioral shifts on a very personal level. It is not always about the money. Choosing to buy a vehicle like the G and using it three or four times longer than the life cycle of most machines is an example. In our area people recycle metal, glass, plastic and paper in the course of daily life activites. It takes a little effort and isn't motivated by money. But you vote with your dollars. Buying locally grown produce from local farmers in a minimum of packaging supports this type of production and raises the demand for that kind of agricultural practice. Support of local production reduces transportation costs and consumption. I live in an area where there is a lot of thinking and action to promote positive change. It happens when people want to do it and make the effort.
-Dai |
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jcaine
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
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| RE: G's and the environment...
4x4abc - 5/19/2007 2:17 PM
Well Joshua, you reminded me of a point that I wanted to make earlier - houses in the desert. Like in Arizona with a growth rate of cancer.
Wind and solar will not satisfy the AC power demand theses houses have. And since nobody is building small houses any longer the demand of energy is truly ridiculous. I am tempted to compare that to your G55 argument - but I'll leave that alone.
My point is - can we afford to constantly build more houses in the desert and why does everyone now need a 4000 sqft house? And I am not just talking. My Beverly Hills house had 2100 sqft. My new house in La Paz has 680. No TV, no living room (I'd rather be outside) no kitchen, do the cooking outside - just a comfortable bedroom, suitable office and cozy bathroom.
I hear you on this point... it's true building alot of giant houses in the desert seems a little sketchy... I'm not sure if you are correct that wind and solar won't cover the demand but you certainly may be... in any case it will certainly help alot... I'm having a solar system put on my ranch house that will cover at least 80% of my electrical needs... and the house was built (not by me) with alot of electronic gadgetry... they're making huge strides with the efficiency of solar and wind... that combined with more efficient appliances and systems (tankless hot water, led lighting, etc.) is making solar a real and viable alternative... many of my neighbors are "off the grid"... anyway, it all helps. |
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4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| Re: G's and the environment...
I don't think leaving it to the people will bring any change. People do not like change. Poeople do not understand change. People = majority of the population. Education won't help. Gentle persuasion (taxt breaks etc) will.
If you would leave it to "people" to vaccinate their children - they wouldn't.
If you would leave it to "people" to have smaller cars - they wouldn't.
If you would leave it to "people" to create less pollution - they wouldn't.
etc etc etc
People come home from church. Amen was their last word and " Thou shalt .." is merely a recommendation.
To change things we need some arm twisting.
I actively remember two things in Germany. The proposed introduction of seat belts and catalytic converters. The emotional masses were howling. Rumors and old husband tales were peddled. The press created a small storm of resistance (isn't it their job to inform?). Nobody wanted that new stuff. It could only be bad. The government wanted to cut your balls off.
It took politicians with vision and guts (they are not always bad) to make it happen. With the cat they had to throw in some money (is bribing always bad?) to get the ball rolling. Now all the silly arguments why both were really bad are forgotten.
So, same with energy and pollution - we need some politicians with guts and vision (lets just hope, the vision pans out) to create change. A little veggie here and a bit of recycling there won't even show on the overall scale. Will make you feel good but you might create the same feel good effect by having a beer at the beach. That said - I'll go have a beer at the beach. Salud!
Edited by 4x4abc 5/19/2007 5:47 PM
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DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
Posts: 9965
| RE: G's and the environment...
jcaine - 5/19/2007 1:38 PM
where my ranch is (tehachapi CA) there is already the largest wind farm in (I beleive) the world and California
Don't they kill lots of birds and make noise? |
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jcaine
Date registered: Dec 1899
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| RE: G's and the environment...
where these are placed there is no noise to hear... I have been real close to them and not heard anything offensive... I've not heard about the bird issue and I think I would have as we are members of many wildlife orgs... lots of birds die on high tension wires everyday... I guess one can fault in pretty much anything but like you say, everything is give and take. |
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Jonathan Joseph
Expert
Date registered: Oct 2006
Location: Charleston, South Carolina
Vehicle(s): 2004 G55
Posts: 1538
| RE: G's and the environment...
Harald,
Don't you think alternative fuels will be a hard sell to the pols, if there are no examples of the praticality of them? Wouldn't a united front of folks, (I mean many thousands, not a few) driving veggie powered cars be an influencing factor on the legislative decision making of the politicians? Wouldn't it also be a good physical example for the voting public to rally behind when presented with the question of whether to support alternative energy?
I'm sorry but as screwed up as our policital system is I still believe the politicians( aren't they "people") were put there by the "people" and should be doing the will of the "people".
Who decides in which direction that "gentle persuasion" pushes? Are politicians granted supernatural powers of intelligence and understanding when they take office? They should be following the direction of their constituency, and if they( the constituancy) aren't intelligent or informed enough it is the responsibility of the administration to help them to a point where they can make an informed decision and then, and only then the politicians should act on their behalf.
It is a commonly accepted believe here in South Carolina that for a long time the powers that be have resisted improving the public school system because it has made it possible for small groups to retain power and influence at the expense of the ignorant.
I truly believe that if the American people were better educated and provided with a less biased set of facts every day you would see a huge differance in the actions of our goverment, because the people would demand it.
Just the opinion of a carpenter...maybe way off base.
Jonathan |
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4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| RE: G's and the environment...
carpenter - cool!. I went through a 3 year apprenticeship of a classic "Hamburger Zimmermann"
never underestimate a carpenter!
Edited by 4x4abc 5/20/2007 1:46 AM
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