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Transponder Car Keys
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Posted 5/7/2006 2:09 AM
fernweh



Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Calabasas, CA - Centenario, BCS - Luebeck, Germany
Vehicle(s): Few Mercedes-Benz, a Toyota Amphibious and a Vespa
2000
Transponder Car Keys

A couple weeks ago I saw a locksmith's van on the freeway here in Los Angeles, advertising transponder key's for Mercedes cars.
I remember some forum members had problems getting replacement keys for their fancy trucks.......
Maybe this guy can provide some help?
I wrote down the phone# and company name - PM me and I 'll pass it on.

Karl
#10192
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Posted 5/7/2006 9:49 AM
AlanMcR
Expert




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, CA, Los Altos
Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL
Posts: 3500
2000
RE: Transponder Car Keys

I gave up the the transponder key idea and went with a hidden dumb metal key on the outside and a hidden normal key (switchblade) on the inside. I decided that gave me some more security. That way, if someone finds the outside key, they can get into the truck but not start it. Thieves are no further ahead than if they broke a window.
#10261 - in reply to #10192
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Posted 5/7/2006 8:40 PM
ewalberg
Expert




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Past: San Francisco. Present: Germany
Vehicle(s): 2000 g500
Posts: 1887
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RE: Transponder Car Keys

have you verified that the dumb metal key doesn't start the car? I want to say i think mine did... at the least i know it turns off the alarm, but i'm not sure if i've started the truck with it.
#10475 - in reply to #10261
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Posted 5/7/2006 8:55 PM
DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
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RE: Transponder Car Keys

ewalberg - 5/7/2006 8:40 PM

have you verified that the dumb metal key doesn't start the car? I want to say i think mine did... at the least i know it turns off the alarm, but i'm not sure if i've started the truck with it.


Mine does.
#10483 - in reply to #10475
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Posted 5/7/2006 11:15 PM
AlanMcR
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Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, CA, Los Altos
Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL
Posts: 3500
2000
Dumb key = no start, at least on my truck

ewalberg - 5/7/2006 5:40 PM

have you verified that the dumb metal key doesn't start the car? I want to say i think mine did... at the least i know it turns off the alarm, but i'm not sure if i've started the truck with it.


See, you there you guys go making me nervous

With the dumb key, the red/green mirror lights blink alternately. The glow plug light operates normally and the truck cranks merrily, but no fuel, no start. What better theft deterrent could I want?

All of this is mediated by the RFID loop that surrounds the key hole. I found this out the hard way when I had the dash apart and wanted to start the car. No loop, no start. I figured it out after checking for fuel level, plugged filter, air in the lines, etc.

By "dumb key" I mean a simple metal blank. MB sells a non-remote metal key that contains an RFID chip in the plastic handle. Is that perhaps what you guys have? You could check by unscrewing the RFID loop and trying to start with the same key.

Edited by AlanMcR 5/7/2006 11:18 PM
#10547 - in reply to #10475
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Posted 5/7/2006 11:52 PM
G4Garret
Veteran




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oak Ridge - Knoxville - Windrock Tennessee
Vehicle(s): 2000 G500, U1100, SLK350, LR 101, WC-63 6x6
Posts: 243
100
RE: Transponder Car Keys

Here are my findings, applicable to a late 2000 G500 Europa import. This is the version with the steering wheel button controls.

A non-transponder key will open the door.

A non-transponder key will not disarm the alarm when inserted in the ignition.

A non-transponder key will start the motor. It will then promptly die within 2000 milliseconds and will not restart. It will crank, just no ignition/fuel.

With a non-transponder key in the ignition, if a transponder key is held within 50 mm of the ignition switch while switching to the ignition position for about 2 seconds, the vehicle will start and run normally with the non-transponder key. The transponder key can then be removed and the vehicle will run, start and stop fine with the non-transponder key, until you remove it from the ignition. Then all resets to normal.


Blanks:

The basic metal key blank is readily available.
key Blank Numbers:
Ilco #: MB15
Dominion #: HF25
Taylor #: M79T
Curtis #: MB34
Silca #: HU22
OEM #: Huf

Blank or programmable transponder keys are almost unavailable for Merecedes products. However, even if you could obtian the blank, it will do no good unless you have a super-secret inside source at DB. The particular RFID chip used is a Philips RFID chip with a very strong encryption system (as far as automobile keys go). It is considerably more secure than typical American/Japanese transponder keys. Only Mercedes can program or encode the RFID chips, as only they have the original encryption key codes. I have detialed info on this if anyone is interested. I once posted it on the old BW G-forum.


Solutions that I know of to the transponder problem:

1. Hide a transponder key in the vehicle, and the non-transponder key outside. Best solution in my opinion, as stated already you will still preserve a high degree of security, yet still be able to get in the vehicle if you lose you main key. Lets you have a bunch of non-transponder backups, however it won't work with remote starters.

2. Install a transponder key bypass box. This is a quircky solution where you take this box and put a transponder key in it permanently. Inside the box it reades the trnasponder key's RFID chip and then via electronics and an antenna coil installed behind the ignition switch it transmits the RFID communications to the vehicles computer. This means you can now use non-transponder keys. However, you can only use non-tranponder keys. If you try to insert a transponder key, it will try to read both the key and the box's output, and the responses will get mixed up and it won't work. As krazy as it sounds, this is really the next best solution, and it will work with remote start systems. Something some G-wagen owners, in some bad places, won't live without. http://www.drdetailshop.com/556U.htm

3. Find a CANBUS expert that will program a microcontroller to send the proper ok-to-start datagram to the vehicles computer anytime the ignition switch detects a key inserted. This works really well, but is a dangerous liability to anyone messing with the "chassis" CANBUS since data for vehicle power and safety systems are on that bus, things like air-bag deployement and ABS operations etc. I wouldn't recommend this solution.



I don't know how applicable this is to all G's, just MY 2000 models and some later, but probably not at all applicable to the crazy MBUSA vehicles with the IR keys.

Garret




By the way, it would sure be nice to start putting these nice informative threads into a G-wagen reference index somewhere...







Edited by G4Garret 5/8/2006 12:03 AM
#10560 - in reply to #10192
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Posted 5/8/2006 10:03 AM
fernweh



Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Calabasas, CA - Centenario, BCS - Luebeck, Germany
Vehicle(s): Few Mercedes-Benz, a Toyota Amphibious and a Vespa
2000
RE: Transponder Car Keys

G4Garret - 5/7/2006 8:52 PM


3. Find a CANBUS expert that will program a microcontroller to send the proper ok-to-start datagram to the vehicles computer anytime the ignition switch detects a key inserted. This works really well, but is a dangerous liability to anyone messing with the "chassis" CANBUS since data for vehicle power and safety systems are on that bus, things like air-bag deployement and ABS operations etc. I wouldn't recommend this solution.



I don't know how applicable this is to all G's, just MY 2000 models and some later, but probably not at all applicable to the crazy MBUSA vehicles with the IR keys.

Garret




By the way, it would sure be nice to start putting these nice informative threads into a G-wagen reference index somewhere...







Hi Garret,

I would love to find a CANbus expert, just to tell my electric seats to start working now! I think you are right it might almost dangerous to change the CANbus system without having a complete oversight over the whole system.

The G-wagen reference index - we are creating it right now here..........I know, but nothing is forever.....

Karl
#10666 - in reply to #10560
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Posted 5/8/2006 8:58 PM
ewalberg
Expert




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Past: San Francisco. Present: Germany
Vehicle(s): 2000 g500
Posts: 1887
1000
RE: Dumb key = no start, at least on my truck

correct assumption at least on my part alan, i was refering to the credit card style key fob key which does have a plastic end on it. That's nice to know theres a blank out there that can be had... maybe i'll try and do that some day.
#10936 - in reply to #10547
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Posted 5/8/2006 9:09 PM
G4Garret
Veteran




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oak Ridge - Knoxville - Windrock Tennessee
Vehicle(s): 2000 G500, U1100, SLK350, LR 101, WC-63 6x6
Posts: 243
100
RE: Transponder Car Keys

fernweh - 5/8/2006 9:03 AM

Hi Garret,

I would love to find a CANbus expert, just to tell my electric seats to start working now! I think you are right it might almost dangerous to change the CANbus system without having a complete oversight over the whole system.

The G-wagen reference index - we are creating it right now here..........I know, but nothing is forever.....

Karl


It's pretty safe to mess with the "Body" CAN-bus, just not the "Chassis" (CAN-C) bus. As long as you only connect to the CAN-B, you can't do much harm, other than mess up the whole interior, instruments and entertainment systems. There are a couple "gateways" that connect the two buses, and they're not supposed to let anything bad through....although you never know... As far as the seats go, I haven't tried addressing them, as my G's seats aren't on the CAN-C bus, but I think it would be simple to do. Hopefully I'll be able to assemble more information, and maybe even a G-specific application that will run under XP. Unfortunately, I've been seperated from my G for a while, and haven't hit a lick on my pet projects lately.

Garret


Edited by G4Garret 5/8/2006 9:11 PM
#10943 - in reply to #10666
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Posted 4/3/2022 1:37 AM
Otiswesty
Administrator




Date registered: Jun 2007
Location: Portland, Oregon
Vehicle(s): 463.241, 461.213
Posts: 3002
2000
RE: Transponder Car Keys

Old thread here, but I am interested in accessing and testing the CAN-B. Is there any info on accessing the CAN B in a G500? I am thinking the multiport under the hood would connect to it in some way.
I am a definite noob in this so just trying to wrap my head around it.

I did find this info and am hoping to have a shop help me interrogate the vehicle if I am unable to do it myself. The subject vehicle is a 1999 G500.

"Up to model year 2002, all communication between the CAN-C and CAN-B bus went through the electronic ignition switch (EIS) module. After 2002, a new "gateway" module handles the inter-bus communications as well as onboard diagnostics via a CAN-D bus."
https://www.aa1car.com/library/can_systems.htm
#243513 - in reply to #10192
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