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463 with larger tires - ESP problems solved
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Posted 11/7/2007 12:56 AM
4x4abc



Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
5000
463 with larger tires - ESP problems solved

Darren at Collie Autoworks is not only one heck of a knowledgeable G mechanic (ask him anything about 463 electronic troubles, and he usually knows a remedy without even looking it up) he let me play with the input options for larger tires to solve my ESP interferences due to the 295/75R16 tires that I had mounted on my G500 some time ago.

The calculated difference between stock 265/60R18 (2367 mm) tires and the new 295/75R16 (2590 mm) tires is about 10%. Enough to freak out ESP in fast turns - especially downhill.

We went into the transmission setup (not into the instrument cluster as recomended by some). The optional 8.25R16 with U=2620 mm tire size is closest to the 295/75R16 (2590 mm).
But we did not put the 8.25R16 in, since we also discovered that you can modify the setting for the diffs. Would it be possible to combine the diff setting with the tire settings?
We chose 235/85R16 (2475 mm) - a 4.5% gain
plus 4.111:1 diffs - an additional 6% gain
all in all 10.5% - 10% was needed
very cool!

Speed indicated and miles driven on the instrument cluster is still off. So the instrument cluster setting should also be adjusted (next time when I am in San Rafael).
First results: the G500 is noticeably more responsive, accelerates faster and shifts differently, fuel economy improved by 10% (calculated with GPS since instrument cluster is still off). And the best thing is that ESP is no longer acting up. Now that's a major improvement. Amazing what a willing mechanic can do for you.

Now, based on the fact that you can combine diff and tire settings, you could input 4.111 gears and 8.25R16 tires - that would allow you to run 35" tires without upsetting ESP.

http://www.collieautoworks.com

Edited by 4x4abc 11/7/2007 1:00 AM




(tires.jpg)



(axle.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments tires.jpg (68KB - 42 downloads)
Attachments axle.jpg (51KB - 22 downloads)
#95283
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Posted 11/7/2007 10:44 AM
KERR

Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
Re: 463 with larger tires - ESP problems solved

Man i wish he was not in san rafeal!!! i would spend more moeny to get my esp fixed..

With you finding out this information about the trans and the diff computers would it be possiable to now install lower gear like 5:33 or something in the G then have him work his magic. Id kill for lower gears to get my bottom end back. Then look into doing a GV overdrive kit to give me two more gears for free way crusing.

His next trick need to be to develop a computer program that will let used down load the info off there G's computer and send it to him for modification then he can e mail it back... With LS1 edit on GM cars and the aem on the supra you can share files. Im sure there is nothing like that for the benz though..
#95336 - in reply to #95283
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Posted 11/7/2007 11:00 AM
UN Mobile

Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
RE: 463 with larger tires - ESP problems solved

Greetings,

I have 235/85/16 tires and have already made the adjustment in the computer for that size and it did change the driving charecteristics some but my ESP problems persist. Would you suggest some other tire/axle ratio??
I will be taking my G500 up to San rafeal for some maintenace in the the near future and will add this to the list that Darren can help me with.
#95339 - in reply to #95283
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Posted 11/7/2007 11:02 AM
4x4abc



Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
5000
Re: 463 with larger tires - ESP problems solved

Kerr,

5.286 gears would accomodate 35" to 36+" tires (U=2790 to 2870 mm)
4.857 gears would accomodate 32" to 33+" tires (U=2550 to 2630 mm)
stock 4.375 gears shoul be good up to 31+" tires (U=2360 to 2470 mm)

stock:
265/60R18, U=2367 mm, 29.66"
265/70R16, U=2357 mm, 29.54"

235/85R16, U=2442 mm, 30.60" -
255/85R16, U=2545 mm, 31.89" - 7.5% loss
265/75R16, U=2450 mm, 30.80" -
275/70R16, U=2416 mm, 30.28" -
285/75R16, U=2545 mm, 31.89" - 7.5% loss
295/75R16, U=2590 mm, 32.46" - 10% loss
305/70R16, U=2540 mm, 31.83" - 7% loss
305/75R16, U=2681 mm, 33.60" - 13% loss

stock diffs 4.375:1
optional 4.857:1 = 11% gain
optional 5.286:1 = 20% gain
#95340 - in reply to #95336
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Posted 11/7/2007 11:08 AM
4x4abc



Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
5000
RE: 463 with larger tires - ESP problems solved

Todd,

was the change made for the instrument cluster or for the transmission module?
The instrument cluster settings affect only speed and miles (signal comes from front left wheel) - no effect on ESP
The transmission module settings affect shift points, engine management and ESP (signal comes from input shaft plus all 4 wheels).

Also, 235/85R16 is only 1" taller than stock - and I am surprised to hear that you had ESP problems at all. You could experiement with the 8.25R16C setting. I am certain, Darren will help you out.

I am more than happy with the results. I stepped on it really hard yesterday (driving faster than I normally would) and only got a little flickering of the triangle out of it - not the aggressive brake interference I had to deal with before (I always had one foot lightly on the brake pedal to fool the computer into "thinking", I was in control of the situation). Without activating the brake control switch in tight fast turns downhill, ESP would send me into oncoming traffic or into the ditch (ESP always "steers" you out of the turn)


Edited by 4x4abc 11/7/2007 11:21 AM
#95342 - in reply to #95339
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Posted 11/7/2007 12:05 PM
mb230s

Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: SWFL
Vehicle(s): G-less for now, vintage MBs, FJ40
500
Re: 463 with larger tires - ESP problems solved

Steve of NLBenz reset my truck for the Toyo Open Country tires I have. He has a StarDiag machine. Not sure what menus he did it in - but my ESP, speedo, acceleration, shift points, etc are normal.
#95350 - in reply to #95283
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Posted 11/8/2007 9:35 AM
KERR

Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
Re: 463 with larger tires - ESP problems solved

awsome,

Let me guess they dont make a 5:28 gears set for our axles.
#95470 - in reply to #95283
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Posted 11/8/2007 11:11 AM
UN Mobile

Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
RE: 463 with larger tires - ESP problems solved

Harald,

Both, the transmission module and the command/nav unit were updated. Your description of the ESP pulling violently to the outside of turn is what I have experienced. Hopefully the other size, input into the transmission module will settle it down, otherwise I will be grounding (through a switch) pin 7 on the locker cluster. Which will disable ESP ABS BAS.

Off Topic:

I will be meeting a small group of guys mon. the 12th at 9:30am to run up Fordyce creek, starting at the staging area off of Eagle lakes exit. I will probally go all the way through to Meadow lake and return to Truckee via Hwy 89. Mostly a jeep and Toyota crowd as Fordyce is fairly severe. You are welcome to join us.
#95482 - in reply to #95283
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Posted 11/8/2007 11:38 AM
4x4abc



Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
5000
RE: 463 with larger tires - ESP problems solved

Todd,

so many playgrounds - so little time.
I'll be in Death Valley with the G-expedition

For on-road travel I would not want to lose ESP, ABS, BAS and Elektronic Brake Force Distribution - they are too valuable to be sacrificed. I would rather have continued to feather my brakes to keep ESP from acting up. But no more need for that sfter the computer correction.
#95487 - in reply to #95482
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Posted 11/8/2007 11:56 AM
Brent
Expert




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: SW Colorado USA
Vehicle(s): '13 Wolfsburg GTI
Posts: 1754
1000
Re: 463 with larger tires - ESP problems solved

KERR - 11/8/2007 7:35 AM

awsome,

Let me guess they dont make a 5:28 gears set for our axles.


It is great to contemplate but even if the gear sets are out there, they are over $1000 a set. That is before installation. You would have to REALLY want it done.

When I had gears done in my 280 by Europa, the bill by then end exceeded $9000.00 and I provided the new CV joints
#95490 - in reply to #95470
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Posted 11/8/2007 11:59 AM
ez rhino



Date registered: Aug 2006
Location: Charlotte, NC
Vehicle(s): 2010 Rubicon Unlimited; 2009 Mini Clubman JCW
300
Re: 463 with larger tires - ESP problems solved

Sounds more like the repair bill for a Cessna.
#95491 - in reply to #95283
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Posted 11/20/2007 1:52 PM
Wolfgang

Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
RE: 463 with larger tires - ESP problems solved


The calculated difference between stock 265/60R18 (2367 mm) tires and the new 295/75R16 (2590 mm) tires is about 10%. Enough to freak out ESP in fast turns - especially downhill.


Harald, I wonder why your G has problems in turns with big tires but my ML with 33" BFGs has not. Have you updated the ESP controller as specified in the ESP technical bulletin for the W463? Was about 2004 when it was issued. I suspect that may solve your ESP in downhill turn problem. Requires a new ESP module part number 463 545 23 32 which reduces the G's ESP in turn quirkiness. I can post details in case you cant find it. It's on www.startekinfo.com.




#96965 - in reply to #95283
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Posted 11/20/2007 4:03 PM
4x4abc



Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
5000
larger tires / ESP conflict finally completely solved

after changing the transmission control module (4.11 diff plus 235/85R16) all my previous ESP troubles had disappeared - but the display was still off
http://www.pointedthree.com/disc/forums/showthread.php?tid=9622&pos...

today we changed the setting for the instrument cluster - largest tire size possible is 235/85R16 (no diffs possible or needed - the instrument cluster gets that info from the transmission module)
NOW my display shows exactly the same speed (plus minus 1 mph) as my GPS!

So, in order to change the 463 system to accept larger tires, both instrument cluster and transmission module need to be fed new numbers.

Work done at our local G-guru shop Collie Autoworks in San Rafael
hope, you don't mind the plug - we need to support the good guys
http://collieautoworks.com/
#96910 - in reply to #95283
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Posted 11/20/2007 4:03 PM
Piggysims

Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
RE: larger tires / ESP conflict finally completely solved

What problems did you have with running larger tyres?

I run 35" on mine and have never had any problems?

Just wondered.
#96917 - in reply to #96910
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Posted 11/20/2007 4:03 PM
roughneck
Expert




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: UK, Germany & USA
Vehicle(s): 270 cdi.300 GD 300 GE.lwb 300 GE.swb. Disco 2
Posts: 4398
2000
RE: larger tires / ESP conflict finally completely solved

Good work Harald, this kind of research is invaluable.
#96918 - in reply to #96910
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Posted 11/20/2007 4:03 PM
bwillie

Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
RE: larger tires / ESP conflict finally completely solved

This is good news. Are you running 33" tires on it?

With the adjustable pan hard and a good alignment my ESP issues have gone away but I know that the speedo is off.
#96939 - in reply to #96910
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Posted 11/20/2007 4:03 PM
4x4abc



Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
5000
RE: larger tires / ESP conflict finally completely solved

Brent,

why did you need an adjustable panhard rod? New/taller springs?

I run 295/75R16 = 32.46"
#96947 - in reply to #96939
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Posted 11/20/2007 4:03 PM
4x4abc



Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
5000
RE: larger tires / ESP conflict finally completely solved

Richard,

post a picture of your G400 with 35's - would love to see it
#96948 - in reply to #96917
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Posted 11/20/2007 4:03 PM
bwillie

Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
RE: larger tires / ESP conflict finally completely solved

About 4" taller springs. The front is done I still need to make the adjustment for the rear.
#96959 - in reply to #96948
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Posted 11/20/2007 4:03 PM
4x4abc



Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
5000
RE: larger tires / ESP conflict finally completely solved

Brent,

shortening of the effective length of the panhard rod (projection of rod) combined with the shortening of the effective length of the drag link due to taller springs is in line with the shortening of the panhard by compression bending (bad driving and increased weight of the 463 vs 460) - both will cause EPS to act up becuase the steering angle sensor gets the wrong values.

Did you get an adjustable panhard rod? I am thinking of having an adjustable (similar to adjustments in the drag link) panhard fabricated for my future 463 projects.



(panhard.jpg)



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Attachments panhard.jpg (86KB - 6 downloads)
#96964 - in reply to #96959
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