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512bbi
Expert
Date registered: Jan 2007
Location: North western US and Europe
Vehicle(s): 05G55kge,Range rover classic,clk55amg,ML 430
Posts: 1313
| RE: 463 with larger tires - ESP problems solved
So what happen to having to change both the tire size AND the the transmission module ?
With my 4.111 there must be no other option( I assume with even higher gears) on my set up.
I need to be totally clear before I ask my tech to go in there and change stuff and see what happens.
Are 8.25R 16 about 32.5 inch diameter?
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Fernando BR
Date registered: Jan 2007
Location: Brasil
Vehicle(s): G500/05 300GE/91 300GD/80
| RE: larger tires / ESP conflict finally completely solved
4x4abc - 11/20/2007 4:03 PM
after changing the transmission control module (4.11 diff plus 235/85R16 ) all my previous ESP troubles had disappeared - but the display was still off
http://www.pointedthree.com/disc/forums/showthread.php?tid=9622&pos...
today we changed the setting for the instrument cluster - largest tire size possible is 235/85R16 (no diffs possible or needed - the instrument cluster gets that info from the transmission module )
NOW my display shows exactly the same speed (plus minus 1 mph ) as my GPS!
So, in order to change the 463 system to accept larger tires, both instrument cluster and transmission module need to be fed new numbers.
Work done at our local G-guru shop Collie Autoworks in San Rafael
hope, you don't mind the plug - we need to support the good guys
http://collieautoworks.com/
Harald,
Adjusting tire diameter and diff reduction tell ESP computer that the car is going to run a bigger distance per engine rotation what is right cause your 295/75/16 has a bigger diameter than 235/85/16 ( max diameter adjust) and this is bigger than stock . But i am thinking about the width , it remains different then stock , and the difference increase from 265/295 to 235/295.
Esp would wait less traction and contact with ground then it will have with 295 , but as you experienced nothing happened and everything is ok. I am confuse about that.Do you have an answer? Did you fell something in ABS and BAS response?
I have just transited the adjustment screnn to my mechanic.
Thanks a lot
Fernando
Edited by boewick 11/25/2007 4:58 PM
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chris505
Date registered: May 2007
Location: San Francisco
Vehicle(s): '79 280E/'80 280GE/'00 G500
| RE: 463 with larger tires - ESP problems solved
512bbi - 11/25/2007 11:24 AM
So what happen to having to change both the tire size AND the the transmission module ?
With my 4.111 there must be no other option( I assume with even higher gears) on my set up.
I believe 4.11 is the highest you can go (3.72 gears were also made but i think only for 460/461)
I need to be totally clear before I ask my tech to go in there and change stuff and see what happens.
Are 8.25R 16 about 32.5 inch diameter?
yes~33". |
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ewalberg
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Past: San Francisco. Present: Germany
Vehicle(s): 2000 g500
Posts: 1887
| Re: 463 with larger tires - ESP problems solved
Regarding ESP for turning stability/control, tire width alone basically shouldn't affect things because the relative rotation rates of the different tires shouldn't change assuming the offsets stay the same... so if you're running less offset rims then you do have a non-reversible change that will affect the actual rates in turns. Less offset will increase the relative rates between tires.
However wider tires alone could still have an impact if the affect the body roll, such as a wide tire on a narrow rim will likely roll more than the stock configuration unless the tires have a really stiff sidewall.
I wonder if lower gears are put in the g55 to improve the mileage because the engine has the power to afford taller gears. I haven't done all the math, but i'm almost positive i've seen a net longterm gain in Mileage going to my heavier/taller 33's, and i'd guess its from lowering the RPM's because everything else should say it's going to increase my mileage. It would tie in with the fact that the 320's get shorter gears. You get better power/driveability with the shorter gears on the 320, and the incremental increase in mileage is offset by the smaller motor. You put in bigger motors, you can afford to drop gearing and maintain/improve driveability and save a little gas given the motor size.
Edited by ewalberg 11/25/2007 10:18 PM
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chris505
Date registered: May 2007
Location: San Francisco
Vehicle(s): '79 280E/'80 280GE/'00 G500
| Re: 463 with larger tires - ESP problems solved
ewalberg, have you fiddled with your speedometer to get accurate mpg figures?
I am very curious to what my mileage would be with 33s. I am also curious if our pre-'02 G500s have that 8.25R16 option.
ps
Just moments ago I was telling my girlfriend while driving back from dinner in the mission that I plan to mount 33" tires on the G500, she opposed the idea thinking it would be an "ugly lifted truck with huge tires", I tried to convince her otherwise but she wasn't hearing it, then 6 blocks from our apartment she pointed to the street corner and said "now THAT is what a G SHOULD look like!" believe it or not she was pointing at your truck off Coal!!! |
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fernweh
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Calabasas, CA - Centenario, BCS - Luebeck, Germany
Vehicle(s): Few Mercedes-Benz, a Toyota Amphibious and a Vespa
| RE: larger tires / ESP conflict finally completely solved
4x4abc - 11/20/2007 1:03 PM
after changing the transmission control module (4.11 diff plus 235/85R16 ) all my previous ESP troubles had disappeared - but the display was still off
http://www.pointedthree.com/disc/forums/showthread.php?tid=9622&pos...
today we changed the setting for the instrument cluster - largest tire size possible is 235/85R16 (no diffs possible or needed - the instrument cluster gets that info from the transmission module )
NOW my display shows exactly the same speed (plus minus 1 mph ) as my GPS!
So, in order to change the 463 system to accept larger tires, both instrument cluster and transmission module need to be fed new numbers.
Work done at our local G-guru shop Collie Autoworks in San Rafael
hope, you don't mind the plug - we need to support the good guys
http://collieautoworks.com/
Harald,
just a small correction after I looked in the transmission control module for ever..... 
The coding you are referring to is done in the transfer case control module and I'm still searching for the tire size change in the instrument cluster thing....
 (IMG_3216 (Small).JPG)
 (IMG_3215 (Small).JPG)
Attachments
----------------
 IMG_3216 (Small).JPG (32KB - 10 downloads)
IMG_3215 (Small).JPG (32KB - 14 downloads)
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fernweh
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Calabasas, CA - Centenario, BCS - Luebeck, Germany
Vehicle(s): Few Mercedes-Benz, a Toyota Amphibious and a Vespa
| RE: 463 with larger tires - ESP problems solved
I found it 
Tire size under 'special equipment' in the variant coding of the Instrument Control Unit.
Let's see if that corrects the speedo problem of being 10% slow...... |
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ewalberg
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Past: San Francisco. Present: Germany
Vehicle(s): 2000 g500
Posts: 1887
| Re: 463 with larger tires - ESP problems solved
i never saw this question chris505... sorry about that. No i havne't messed with my speedo, but i have measured my odometet/trip distance against a navi so i have been recording my distance traveled and gallons used, and my long term mileage before hand was 14.2 (after corrections, it wasn't that accurate to start) and now it looks based on my estimations (i haven't gone in crunched all the numbers) to be between 14 and 15mpg... 285/70r17's. Highway mileage seems better, city maybe a little worse.
they're basically 33's and no lift. my rims at et35 and 8.5" wide. Just the 265/65r18 bfg a/t ko looks quite a bit nicer in my opinion, but i'm most partial to my setup. Glad she liked it...
At the tech session at collier's there was a really nice mix of g500 with different rim and tire options.
I've never cared that my speedo doesn't read right on... and it doesn't really affect anything else elecronically as far as i can tell. THough i would be curious to see how it changed my shift points, but i've always been pretty happy with them. A bit lazy to downshift as always, but it stays down once it shifts which i like. (no hunting)
PS, my spare is in the upper position to keep it out of harms way. |
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DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
Posts: 9963
| Only Works on G's w/ECU for the Transfer Case
4x4abc - 11/7/2007 12:56 AM
Darren at Collie Autoworks is not only one heck of a knowledgeable G mechanic (ask him anything about 463 electronic troubles, and he usually knows a remedy without even looking it up ) he let me play with the input options for larger tires to solve my ESP interferences due to the 295/75R16 tires that I had mounted on my G500 some time ago.
The calculated difference between stock 265/60R18 (2367 mm ) tires and the new 295/75R16 (2590 mm ) tires is about 10%. Enough to freak out ESP in fast turns - especially downhill.
We went into the transmission setup (not into the instrument cluster as recomended by some ). The optional 8.25R16 with U=2620 mm tire size is closest to the 295/75R16 (2590 mm ).
But we did not put the 8.25R16 in, since we also discovered that you can modify the setting for the diffs. Would it be possible to combine the diff setting with the tire settings?
We chose 235/85R16 (2475 mm ) - a 4.5% gain
plus 4.111:1 diffs - an additional 6% gain
all in all 10.5% - 10% was needed
very cool!
Speed indicated and miles driven on the instrument cluster is still off. So the instrument cluster setting should also be adjusted (next time when I am in San Rafael ).
First results: the G500 is noticeably more responsive, accelerates faster and shifts differently, fuel economy improved by 10% (calculated with GPS since instrument cluster is still off ). And the best thing is that ESP is no longer acting up. Now that's a major improvement. Amazing what a willing mechanic can do for you.
Now, based on the fact that you can combine diff and tire settings, you could input 4.111 gears and 8.25R16 tires - that would allow you to run 35" tires without upsetting ESP.
http://www.collieautoworks.com
It's actually the setup for the Transfer Case ("VG" in the photos = Verteiler Getrieb = Transfer Case), not the Transmission as stated above; and it only works on G's that have an ECU for the Transfer Case. My 2000 G500 with a manual selector lever for the TC does not have a TC ECU; and, therefore, does not have these adjustments. Only the Instrument Cluster tire adjustment is available on these models.
Of course, I also don't have ESP; so there's no need to have to fool it. |
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fernweh
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Calabasas, CA - Centenario, BCS - Luebeck, Germany
Vehicle(s): Few Mercedes-Benz, a Toyota Amphibious and a Vespa
| RE: Only Works on G's w/ECU for the Transfer Case
DUTCH - 3/15/2008 10:46 AM
4x4abc - 11/7/2007 12:56 AM
Darren at Collie Autoworks is not only one heck of a knowledgeable G mechanic (ask him anything about 463 electronic troubles, and he usually knows a remedy without even looking it up ) he let me play with the input options for larger tires to solve my ESP interferences due to the 295/75R16 tires that I had mounted on my G500 some time ago.
The calculated difference between stock 265/60R18 (2367 mm ) tires and the new 295/75R16 (2590 mm ) tires is about 10%. Enough to freak out ESP in fast turns - especially downhill.
We went into the transmission setup (not into the instrument cluster as recomended by some ). The optional 8.25R16 with U=2620 mm tire size is closest to the 295/75R16 (2590 mm ).
But we did not put the 8.25R16 in, since we also discovered that you can modify the setting for the diffs. Would it be possible to combine the diff setting with the tire settings?
We chose 235/85R16 (2475 mm ) - a 4.5% gain
plus 4.111:1 diffs - an additional 6% gain
all in all 10.5% - 10% was needed
very cool!
Speed indicated and miles driven on the instrument cluster is still off. So the instrument cluster setting should also be adjusted (next time when I am in San Rafael ).
First results: the G500 is noticeably more responsive, accelerates faster and shifts differently, fuel economy improved by 10% (calculated with GPS since instrument cluster is still off ). And the best thing is that ESP is no longer acting up. Now that's a major improvement. Amazing what a willing mechanic can do for you.
Now, based on the fact that you can combine diff and tire settings, you could input 4.111 gears and 8.25R16 tires - that would allow you to run 35" tires without upsetting ESP.
http://www.collieautoworks.com
It's actually the setup for the Transfer Case ("VG" in the photos = Verteiler Getrieb = Transfer Case ), not the Transmission as stated above; and it only works on G's that have an ECU for the Transfer Case. My 2000 G500 with a manual selector lever for the TC does not have a TC ECU; and, therefore, does not have these adjustments. Only the Instrument Cluster tire adjustment is available on these models.
Of course, I also don't have ESP; so there's no need to have to fool it.
Huuuh, I thought our moderator reads all our posts........I had corrected 4x4abc's claim already a bit earlier  |
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DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
Posts: 9963
| RE: Only Works on G's w/ECU for the Transfer Case
fernweh - 3/16/2008 8:43 AM
Huuuh, I thought our moderator reads all our posts........I had corrected 4x4abc's claim already a bit earlier ;)
Obviously, I don't read them all; but your post didn't point out the fact that the earlier G's do not have an ECU for the TC.  |
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mkappeli
Member
Date registered: Jul 2007
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Vehicle(s): 2004 G500
Posts: 5
| RE: 463 with larger tires - ESP problems solved
Ok, so I'm getting involved with the project of lifting my 2004 G500. I am going to do a 3" Lift and would like to mount 35's on it. The ECU needs to be reprogrammed in order for it to function correctly. So what exactley needs to be done? After reading this post, I see that I need a StarDiag computer to modifiy the transmission module and the instrument module. What exact parameters need to be programmed in for 2004 G500 with 33" Tires and 35" Tires? I figure MB has this computer and if I can give them specific instructions on how to use their computer, they should be able to do the mentioned mods. Comments? |
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DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
Posts: 9963
| RE: 463 with larger tires - ESP problems solved
mkappeli - 9/27/2008 4:04 PM
Ok, so I'm getting involved with the project of lifting my 2004 G500. I am going to do a 3" Lift and would like to mount 35's on it. The ECU needs to be reprogrammed in order for it to function correctly. So what exactley needs to be done? After reading this post, I see that I need a StarDiag computer to modifiy the transmission module and the instrument module. What exact parameters need to be programmed in for 2004 G500 with 33" Tires and 35" Tires? I figure MB has this computer and if I can give them specific instructions on how to use their computer, they should be able to do the mentioned mods. Comments?
Do us and yourself a favor. Go into your "My Profile" (upper left side of the page) and complete the sections that tell us the year and model of your G, as well as where you're located. We might be able to point you to an indie mechanic who has the STAR Diagnosis System. Most franchised MB dealers will not do much playing with the system in order to prevent any possible liability litigation issues. |
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arthurchapin
Member
Date registered: Jan 2011
Location: Washington State, USA
Vehicle(s): 2002 G500
Posts: 12
| Math check please :)
I am going to take my truck in to have the change made this week and wanted to confirm my math with you guys.
My new tire size 325/60R18 = 33.22 (manufacture spec) or 9% over stock
In Transfercase Setup (VG) there are the following options
265/60R18 - 265/70R16 - 285/55R18 = 30.5"
255/55R18 - 225/75R16 = 29"
235/85R16 - 265/75R16 = 31.75"
8.25R16 = 32.5" (I could be off)
Based on this I should select the 31.75" tire size and then select the 4.11 diffs. which would give me 10.5% up or I could just change the diffs and get 6%. Im guessing it would be better to go with the 1.5% over versus the 3% under?
Also what are the options for the instrament cluster and which screen is that on? I want to give the shop good directions? I think what I read was that the cluster picks up the diff setting so I should set it to the same 265/75R16 tires that I will set in the VG screen.
Does that all sound right? |
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sc_trojan
Member
Date registered: Aug 2010
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Vehicle(s): 05 w463 G55, 07 w251 R500, 03 996tt
Posts: 6
| how to reduce esp in 05 g55???
4x4abc, question for you- I have a 05 g55 with stock 285/55/18 wheels. My esp settings are stock. I find that when I take a moderately aggressive turn, the esp turns on. Secondly, I see that even if I turn off the ESP on the center console, it turns itself back on after 40mph.
Thus, if I wanted to lessen the amount of ESP interaction, can I adjust the diff to 4.11:1 or set my tire size to the largest possible? or both? I assume doing this will reduce the amount of ESP activation which isn't good for wet weather? Since I live in los angeles, wet weather and snow are not real issues. |
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4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| RE: how to reduce esp in 05 g55???
there is nothing you can do except driving slower
so slow that the MB engineers thought would be safe for the G55
changing the modules to a different tire size and/or diff setting will make matters worse - the computer will freak out
there is one option that takes some practice and may require going to one of the racing schools:
learn to drive with both feet (at all times - not just on occasion)
if you have you left foot on the brake pedal (just enough to open the electric contact, but not so much as to actually brake) while driving very spirited turns ESP will not kick in unless you are about to lose control
the way the software is written, is that when the brake is activated the computer thinks the driver is in control of the situation and will step in very late
I have done this for a long time with my larger tires and the hyper sensitive ESP before we found the current setup solution
so, go learn how to drive with both feet (once your left foot can brake as sensitively as your right you have arrived - and it has to become second nature) |
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jeremyw
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Vehicle(s): '03 G500 O'erlanderwagen
Posts: 846
| Re: 463 with larger tires - ESP problems solved
Harald, what if you have 2 left feet or heaven forbid, 3 feet? What then?
Great info here! |
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Indiana Drew
Expert
Date registered: Feb 2007
Location: Houston Tx
Vehicle(s): 2002 G500 LWB, 1980 280GE SWB (Sold), S500
Posts: 2223
| Re: 463 with larger tires - ESP problems solved
I had my mechanic make the adjustments (33.3") and all feels much better - still getting the ESP on the sweeping lefts and that is at about 30 mph ... Speedometer is within .5 mph at 60 mph ... All in all much better! |
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clubgwagen.com
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: gwagenpreserve.com
Vehicle(s): 300GE Cabriolet
Posts: 736
| Re: 463 with larger tires - ESP problems solved
Harald is right, that is the trick to getting around ESP intervention on a modern 463 car.
And offroad, or rally driving, you need to learn how to drive with two feet anyway, so this might as well be your excuse to start learning!
Most racing schools will still teach heel - toe method (using just one foot) because its still largely based on having a clutch in most sports and race cars that amatuers use. Ofcourse since the betterment of tiptronic and Ferrari F1 paddle shift tech has entered cars like a WRX, etc, some schools are now starting to teach two foot driving.
-mserpe
not just a G guy...my other history is
(a Porsche track school driving instructor 1997-2003)
now a private instructor
Raced Porsches 16 years
Raced Saab and GTI ice and rally cars....where you really learn how to drive
2wd racing in the snow and ice of Maine, Canada, and NY State
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Otiswesty
Administrator
Date registered: Jun 2007
Location: Portland, Oregon
Vehicle(s): 463.241, 461.213
Posts: 3004
| Re: 463 with larger tires - ESP problems solved
I believe that Karl and Richard have wired in an ESP kill switch that is not limited like the stock switch at 40 mph. The issue with the '05 G55 is likely the yaw sensors that are sensing the pitch or roll of the car in a fast turn. That is the only time I have ESP issues; also with 33.2" tires and a Star computer reset. I think the reason that Karl was having ESP issues was most likely due to this same fact combined with driving roads like Topanga or Malibu Canyon. |
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