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hipine
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
| Re: 460 spring lift (Orimex)
roughneck - 7/19/2006 2:26 PM ....By my reckoning if you increase spring height and nothing else, castor angle will change very slightly on the front axle only, but it will increase by an almost negligable amount.... By doing the math, castor angle changes by very close to 1/2 of one degree per inch of axle movement toward or away from the chassis. How much is "negligible" is up to the individual. Since the suspension isn't usually appreciably compressed or extended when cornering or in situations where high speed stability is desired (both where castor is working for you), the static castor value is the one that is focussed upon for driveability. Searches on BWF and maybe here, I don't know, will yield REAMS of good information on what a spring lift does to the truck. Only the individual can decide how much deviation from original driveability is acceptable. I know lots of people who have sworn they did "just springs" and "the truck drives fine" until they experienced what the truck drove like when the lift was done "by the book" to provide the desired clearance without sacrificing suspension and steering geometries. Granted, if one is just slogging around in the mud, correct steering and suspension geometries aren't too important. But if the "all around" character of the G is to be maintained as an on and off road vehicle with high standards of capability in both arenas, then there's usually real perceivable benefit from doing the whole job. How much performance is worth how much money can also only be determined by the individual. Just my opinion....well the second paragraph that is.....the first paragraph is fact. -Dave G. |
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dai
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
| Re: 460 spring lift (Orimex)
Great information Dave. I lifted my G with my spring choices by around 70 mm. Very close to 3 inches or a degree and a half of shift in castor. This made my castor 0. Bad. It is a "handfull" to quote Mr. Q on the road. It requires very good concentration to go where you want to go. In addition to the castor shift problem is the way the input shaft of the diff is pointed. It shifted up which makes the U-joint angles very severe. This causes vibration and stress that will damage either the front diff or the T-case or both. At low speeds, off road it isn't noticeable or a problem really, but on the road on smooth surfaces at speed it is obvious and will lead to driveshaft wear and other issues. This is probably most noticeable on a SWB diesel G because of the more severe driveshaft angles because they are shorter in the rear. And they are a bit lighter than LWB trucks and will lift a little higher as a result with the same spring choices. I have enjoyed learning about these dynamics and can see light at the end of the tunnel. I wish I knew what I was facing when I was buying the springs but I wouldn't change anything. I bought them for load handling ability. When I have to fill the truck with cases totaling 800 to 1000 lbs it deals with the weight beautifully. I am close to getting all of the angles right. 
-Dai
Edited by dai 7/26/2006 1:07 AM
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ewalberg
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Past: San Francisco. Present: Germany
Vehicle(s): 2000 g500
Posts: 1887
| RE: 460 spring lift (Orimex)
on www.4x4abc.com harald lists how you can fit 35" tires without any rubbing by making a few cuts to the frame in non-structural areas... with a 2cm body lift you could fit even larger tires. Body lift lets you put larger tires, so tires lift the body, not suspension. DO the larger tires not give you enough lift for where you are driving? Just a 35" tires instead of 31" tires gives at least 2" more lift of frame than the largest stock tires and then you don't need to do anything but buy new shocks if yours are bad. Trucks with more used driveshafts sending power to the front and rear wheels are known to make vibrations at speed when lifted later in the trucks life. If you don't need more load capability like dai, is it really necessary you lift because problem can take a long time to solve and not free. Maybe look at total amount of money you are willing to spend, because people can probably give you an idea how much it could cost if you have several problems... but it depends where and how you drive.
Edited by ewalberg 7/26/2006 11:44 PM
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-UG-
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: Jun 2006
Location: Finland
Vehicle(s): GD300, S350 CDI
Posts: 446
| Re: 460 spring lift (Orimex)
For all purpose driving I would not lift the vehicle, springs or body, at all. Just put proper 32-33 inch M/T tires and no lift. The car handles ok on road and still gives you more off-road capabilities than most ever have balls to experiment anyway. What do you need the 35"s for?
-UG- |
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Ducks
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
| RE: 460 spring lift (Orimex)
ewalberg - 7/26/2006 8:43 PM on www.4x4abc.com harald lists how you can fit 35" tires without any rubbing by making a few cuts to the frame in non-structural areas... .
Just for clarification, I believe on 4x4abc that he mentions using at least the white springs which according to the charts on this page produce at least a little lift:
http://www.pointedthree.com/disc/forums/showthread.php?tid=2905&start=1&highlight=springs&highlightmode=1
There is also the issue of the backspacing (et) of the wheels.
Although 35s may not be needed for most things it appears that the lift would help with traversing rough trails in rocky environments. At least it looks easier when looking through the pictures on Deckowski's webpage:
http://www.deckowski.com/
Just what I have read.  |
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4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| RE: 460 spring lift (Orimex)
Anders,
a spring lift will :
Change your caster angle. Resulting in possible bad vibrations.
Change your drive line angles (U-joints). Especially with older drive shafts you will have serious vibrations.
Solution : replace the bracket on the frame (461 military version have them) for your leading and trailing arms
a spring lift will :
Rotate you Panhard rods (you called them transverse links) downwards. That results in your front axle being pushed out to the left from its centered position under the frame/body. That results in your rear axle being pushed out to the roght from its centered position under the frame/body. Front right wheel will stick out significantly, right rear will be pushed in, front left will be pushed in, left rear will be pushed out. Just cosmetics but it will look strange.
Solution: lengthen Panhard rods.
Brake lines are no issue - they extend
You will have to adjust/modify you rear brake proportioning valve (part number listed on my web site)
Harald
http://4x4abc.com/G/35.html
Edited by 4x4abc 8/1/2006 1:40 PM
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Jim G.
Regular
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Vehicle(s): 230GE Diesel, MB 1992 310 4x4 Van, 04 C230K Coupe
Posts: 63
| Re: 460 spring lift (Orimex)
Hello Dave G. and All,
I have installed a MWM turbo diesel engine and NV4500 5 speed transmission in my 1987 230GE. Happily it all seems to work. I have only test driven it around my neighborhood as I still need to do a spring lift to get some clearance between my front axle drive shaft and the humongous bellhousing.
Dave, you indicated that front caster changes by approx. half a degree per inch of lift on a GWagen. Would you be kind enough to explain your method of calculating the caster change.
I have pulled my front radius arms and measured the relative positions of the back pivot and bolt postions in the x & y dimension and input the coordinates into AutoCad.
The result when I applied a 100mm or 4 inch lift was a whopping 6.7 degree deflection downward of the radius arm and if I understand this correctly, this would also be the caster change to the negative. I have read that Landrover defenders (coilers) have a 1.5 degree per inch caster change and landcruisers, which also have a similar-copied front suspension system, have approx. a 1 degree change.
I am planning to use offset bushings, (thanks Chuque Henry) or the Canadian Military drop brackets or a combination thereof and a cross-check of the caster change would be helpful.
Best Regards,
Jim
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dai
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
| Re: 460 spring lift (Orimex)
I am working on getting some spacer bushings made for the OME offsets. Yes thanks Chuque Henry! I have a friend with a CNC and is interested in the problem. My plan is to use the Canadian G drop brackets for the front and Offsets for the rear. The logic is that those drops will be more vulnerable to damage in the rear. When I have them made multiples at the same time are the most convienient. Let me know if you want a set. My truck with it's current 70mm of lift has no caster and wants to find its own way down the road. Also the front driveline angle is so severe that I am not running a front shaft until I solve this. My winter project. If the front drop brackets are not exactly correct offsets could also be used there to fine tune the front as well.
-Dai
Edited by dai 9/20/2006 12:02 AM
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Jim G.
Regular
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Vehicle(s): 230GE Diesel, MB 1992 310 4x4 Van, 04 C230K Coupe
Posts: 63
| Re: 460 spring lift (Orimex)
Dai,
Yep, I'm in.
BTW, I have found a place in OZ that sells offset bushings for Landcruisers and Nissan Patrols, which appear to be the same pieces. They have ones like OME which they call a 2" lift set and also a 3" lift set. See attached URL.
http://cgi.ebay.com/3-CASTOR-BUSH-CORRECTION-KIT-NISSAN-PATROL-GQ-G...
Also Dai, isn't driving a GWagen without the front driveshaft hazardous to the health of the transfer case as the internal oil pump in the transfer case doesn't operate?
Best Regards,
Jim |
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dai
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
| Re: 460 spring lift (Orimex)
If the T-case is in either of the four wheel drive positions (SA) it spins everything in there and lubricates the box. If it is in two wheel drive without the driveshaft it will be damaged quickly. I have lots of miles on it without the front shaft with the case in 4WD with no issues. I don't want to vibrate things to death. The truck is incredibly nimble and capable off road without the front axle pulling.
I bought my offsets from Landcrusher.com.
I'll get going on the bushings soon.
Cheers,
-Dai |
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