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| roughneck Expert Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: UK, Germany & USA Vehicle(s): 270 cdi.300 GD 300 GE.lwb 300 GE.swb. Disco 2 Posts: 4398  | Re: Hydroplaned! ESP question I am so glad I don't have any of these gadgets, except I have a mark one eyeball. a mark one feel in the seat of my pants, auto reactive steering arms attached to extremley sensative hands that work in co-ordination with equally sensative legs and feet all controled by a central nervous system that is driven by the most complex computer created, the brain, keeps me out of trouble , gets me out of trouble and needs very little maintence, just turn it off for around 8 hours every night, and its up and ready to go all day.  | |
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| Brent Expert Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: SW Colorado USA Vehicle(s): '13 Wolfsburg GTI Posts: 1754  | RE: Hydroplaned! ESP question The ESP really had nothing to sense. That is why I still maintain that the driver, not the electronics are the best driver  ESP needs to sense something like wheel speed differences. If you didn't stomp on the gas and cause wheelspin, you wouldn't get any intervention. There also was little or no G-force loading, there was no real yaw, there were not jerky control inputs. It might have felt weird to you but ESP doesn't have a floatation sensor  Even though you nearly sideswiped another car and or headed towards the gaurdrail, the ESP can't anticipate any of these things. Some of the newest technology might have reacted differently. The new radar based systems can track closing speeds, activate the brakes and all kinds of other crazy features. Still, even that probably wouldn't have made a difference in your specific incident. Now if you had turned the wheel just a little too far while hydroplaning, the tires had caught traction and started a spin, that is when the ESP would try to save your posterior. On wet roads like that it probably would have done a very good job, or it may have acted but so quickly you didn't feel anything.  | |
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| ewalberg Expert Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: Past: San Francisco. Present: Germany Vehicle(s): 2000 g500 Posts: 1887 | ||
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| W5YK Extreme Veteran Date registered: May 2006 Location: San Diego Vehicle(s): 2002 G500, Unimog U2450, Posts: 543  | ||
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| Fenalaar Elite Veteran Date registered: May 2006 Location: Narvik, Norway Vehicle(s): 2001 ML270CDI, Polaris 400L Big Boss Posts: 826 | ||
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| mortinson Expert Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: Madrid, España Vehicle(s): '98 G300TD LWB, '98 E300TD Saloon Posts: 1355 | ||
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| Re: Hydroplaned! ESP question mortinson - 9/2/2006 6:47 AM in fact, Mercedes started screwing up its cars when it decided to build them with ESP, ASR, SRS, etc. Oh, the good old days! Oh yeah, it's such a terrible thing...see: http://www.iihs.org/news/rss/pr061306.html "Many single-vehicle crashes involve rolling over, and ESC effectiveness in preventing rollovers is even more dramatic. It reduces the risk of fatal single-vehicle rollovers of SUVs by 80 percent, 77 percent for cars. ESC was found to reduce the risk of all kinds of fatal crashes by 43 percent. This is more than the 34 percent reduction reported in 2004. If all vehicles had ESC, it could prevent as many as 10,000 of the 34,000 fatal passenger vehicle crashes that occur each year."  | ||
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| Brent Expert Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: SW Colorado USA Vehicle(s): '13 Wolfsburg GTI Posts: 1754 | Re: Hydroplaned! ESP question Thai - 9/2/2006 5:58 AM mortinson - 9/2/2006 6:47 AM in fact, Mercedes started screwing up its cars when it decided to build them with ESP, ASR, SRS, etc. Oh, the good old days! Oh yeah, it's such a terrible thing...see: http://www.iihs.org/news/rss/pr061306.html "Many single-vehicle crashes involve rolling over, and ESC effectiveness in preventing rollovers is even more dramatic. It reduces the risk of fatal single-vehicle rollovers of SUVs by 80 percent, 77 percent for cars. ESC was found to reduce the risk of all kinds of fatal crashes by 43 percent. This is more than the 34 percent reduction reported in 2004. If all vehicles had ESC, it could prevent as many as 10,000 of the 34,000 fatal passenger vehicle crashes that occur each year." :bleh: And I don't suppose, you as a supporter of such systems, questions these figures at all? I suppose the iihs was riding along in every one of these accidents so they are qualified to judge whether or not the ESC could have actually prevented a rollover or a fatal crash? I am now resisting the overwhelming temptation to rant on this subject. We've been through it before, no point in it this time. Suffice it to say that Kerr's experience is more proof to me that a good driver is a better defense mechanism than any electronic intervention, and that I think the iihs has an agenda that drives inflated figures to press for public consumption. I find it misleading and highly irresponsible, but what's new  | |
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| roughneck Expert Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: UK, Germany & USA Vehicle(s): 270 cdi.300 GD 300 GE.lwb 300 GE.swb. Disco 2 Posts: 4398 | ||
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| Dave P Veteran Date registered: Jun 2006 Location: Ashford,UK Vehicle(s): Posts: 184  | Re: Hydroplaned! ESP question roughneck - 9/1/2006 11:06 PM I am so glad I don't have any of these gadgets, except I have a mark one eyeball. a mark one feel in the seat of my pants, auto reactive steering arms attached to extremley sensative hands that work in co-ordination with equally sensative legs and feet all controled by a central nervous system that is driven by the most complex computer created, the brain, keeps me out of trouble , gets me out of trouble and needs very little maintence, just turn it off for around 8 hours every night, and its up and ready to go all day. :) Hi Bill I can only agree with you,having known you for a few years now and knowing the sort of driving we have done in our time,I think we would both have used our ESP(Estra Sensory Perception),to figure out that if it is raining,and we are doing about 60,the chances of aquaplaning are pretty high,so we exercise our little grey cells,to lift right foot from go faster pedal,and slow down. But then again why do that when you have those"get you out of trouble"electronics onboard? If you want a real laugh try ABS on sheet ice. Dave  | |
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| roughneck Expert Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: UK, Germany & USA Vehicle(s): 270 cdi.300 GD 300 GE.lwb 300 GE.swb. Disco 2 Posts: 4398 | Re: Hydroplaned! ESP question Hi Dave welcome aboard, your contribution will be invaluable and knowing you humorous at most times. ABS, is that when you feather the loud pedal with your right foot and cadence the stop pedal with your left. I like you can remember when standing water or sheet ice was just par. and ESP meant extra sugar please.  | |
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| Re: Hydroplaned! ESP question Brent - 9/2/2006 8:48 AM And I don't suppose, you as a supporter of such systems, questions these figures at all? Suffice it to say that Kerr's experience is more proof to me that a good driver is a better defense mechanism than any electronic intervention, and that I think the iihs has an agenda that drives inflated figures to press for public consumption. I find it misleading and highly irresponsible, but what's new :banghead: I am about as unbias as you can get, Brent. I am not blinded by my G nor by Mercedes. Brent, we've been thru this many times on this topic and others...and you should know this about me by now...i am not blinded by things easily (remember, Rubicon vs. G? I will gladly admit when a vehicle is better at certain things). Currently, I support stability systems and other electronic nannies because it makes for a safer road for me and my family against idiotic drivers (and let's be honest, on the worst of days, many of us are these drivers). Like Ewalberg once argued, there are many idiotic drivers on the road...since we can't keep them off the road, we might as well control their bad tendencies with these safety aids. And data after years of useage around the world are slowly coming out supporting these systems. And there is NOT any data out there criticizing these systems. These systems are now on almost every vehicle sold in the USA as an option or standard equipment...that should tell you something especially in our litiginous society where a failed equipment can mean billions of dollars lost. A good driver is the best defense...no doubt. I have never argued differently. However, given equal drivers (idiotic or expert), a person driving a vehicle with stability control will have the advantage in foul weather. And i think that the above stats by IIHS proves this point. IIHS agenda is to serve the insurance companies i guess. Therefore, i think that IIHS would recommend a system that is advantageous to them...lower insurance costs, insurance payments, cashouts on injuries, etc.. Most of the time, what they recommend to avoid injury ALSO applies to me & my family. | ||
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| ewalberg Expert Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: Past: San Francisco. Present: Germany Vehicle(s): 2000 g500 Posts: 1887 | ||
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| Brent Expert Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: SW Colorado USA Vehicle(s): '13 Wolfsburg GTI Posts: 1754 | RE: Hydroplaned! ESP question That brings up an inherent flaw in these types of systems. People begin to think that these systems will save them no matter what. Even Kerr, who has owned a bunch of cars, including some scary fast ones, didn't really know what to expect from the system on his G. There was clearly an expectation that since the car acted out of the ordinary that the electronics should have done something. I guess I feel ESP is like welfare. It is a safety net that keeps you alive should you choose not to take responsibility for your own actions. Rather than continue to expand welfare and the abilities of stability control systems, we should be looking for ways to eliminate the need for such complexities in our lives. Maybe I've just been in the mountains too long | |
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