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617A engine swap progress - Part 2
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Posted 11/9/2006 4:39 PM
stevegsmith
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Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: SF Bay Area, CA USA
Vehicle(s): 82 300GD WVO, 06 Jeep Lib CRD B99
Posts: 1301
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RE: Telling tales on the 617A (instrumentation)

Hey Dave,

Nice job on everything. It is really great to see you up and running. I know you've been thinking/planning/working on this for some time.

What gauges are you using? I don't have an oil temp or boost gauge. Take a pic for me would ya?

Oh yeah, what did you end up doing with your York compressor?

Forgive me if you you've already addressed this. As you can imagine, my boy (20 months) and pregnant wife have been distracting. I know, how selfish can they be? Geez.

Steve
#52603 - in reply to #52593
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Posted 11/9/2006 4:42 PM
DesertStar
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Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA
Vehicle(s): 85-280GE/95-G320/08-G500
Posts: 2156
2000
RE: 617A engine swap progress - Part 2

Dave, regarding the oil pressure, that is so weird as I was driving from work lst night on my 30 mile commute in my 300SD I was looking at my oil pressure and wondering how you were going to monitor on your G that was a former gasser with no stock pressure gauge.....but I forgot you have the plethora of gauges that you added.
Anyway, oil pressure at startup/col always spikes the needle as you indicated and once warm goes down considerably at idle. The slightest increase in accelerator jumps the pressure always and at stop lights always goes back down or even slowing down by taking foot off throttle has same result.
Same scenario in my 1983 W123 300D as with my current 1981 W126 300SD.
I am sure Dai can give you more technical info, while my comments are to reassure you that it is pretty normal.
Mike
#52605 - in reply to #52045
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Posted 11/9/2006 4:47 PM
hipine



Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
5000
Great to see you back, man.

There's a post somewhere in the not too distant past with all the poop on gauges......Here:

http://www.pointedthree.com/disc/forums/showthread.php?tid=3857&posts=3&highlight=gauge&highlightmode=1#M39709

They're Isspro gauges that I got from Diesel Injection Service in Lubbock, TX.

I have two Yorks on the shelf now that I'll need to sell off.  If I get back to on board air on the 617A, it'll be with one of the small axials.  The one York is still bolted to the M110.  It's the one that Q bought for teh purpose of on board air, so it's probably high volume.  The other is the original one that was in my G when I got it, working for the AC system that was there, but non-functional (compressor spins fine though).

It's great to hear from you again.  But I sure know there's more to life than trucks.  Any number of times with the motor all apart I'd think, "I really SHOULD be out in the garage working on that motor, but I really NEED to just play a little banjo tonight!" 

-Dave G.

 

#52606 - in reply to #52603
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Posted 11/9/2006 4:52 PM
hipine



Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
5000
You 'da man, Mike!

Thanks a million for helping to put my mind at ease a little.  I'm so paranoid about what might be normal or not normal with this engine.  Every little thing is a learning experience.  I'm so far out of my element that I don't even know what kinds of things I should or shouldn't wonder about!  But every successful mile on the odometer leads to higher comfort.  And having folks like you around to lend a kind word of assurance now and then makes all the difference.  Your description sounds like exactly what's happenning with my oil pressure.  Sounds like its 'sposed to be that way.

Thanks again!

Did you see that guy post a while ago who lives in Ely?  Now I have 2 nevadans to visit on my way to Mendocino next April!

-Dave G.

#52607 - in reply to #52605
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Posted 11/9/2006 5:18 PM
DesertStar
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Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA
Vehicle(s): 85-280GE/95-G320/08-G500
Posts: 2156
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RE: 617A engine swap progress - Part 2

One of these days I will learn how to use the "quote" function....I have email contact with Oskar in Ely, seems like a real gentleman. Now you have a place to stop for lunch and dinner on your way to Mendoncino or a visit to the Oregon coast.
I have been following your adventures, but havent chimed in as I have never done a motor swap....in fact most of my major mechanical skills relating to the G have been gained from your "DIY" links on clubgwagen.com and felt I couldnt be of any immediate assistance...but I was there with you in spirit.

Have you noticed the immediate improvement with engine braking ?
Since I always have a humorous side about me, I always pictured you in the following links testing out your diesel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVG_pRjpMgc

and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQqymt9HvQM

Mike
#52613 - in reply to #52045
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Posted 11/9/2006 7:26 PM
Jonathan Joseph
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Date registered: Oct 2006
Location: Charleston, South Carolina
Vehicle(s): 2004 G55
Posts: 1538
1000
RE: 617A engine swap progress - Part 2

Hipine,
If it's appropriate in this thread I'd like to ask about your sensors and gauge's.
Where is your exhaust temp sensor mounted?
Where is your oil temp sensor mounted?
What gauges are you using and how(where) are they mounted? Could you post a picture?
My 300GD has an oil idiot light, I'd like a gauge. Is this pretty standard, mine is a Europa import supposedly.
My temp gauge is not graduated in degrees, just hash marks, is it possible to directly switch this out with a "real" gauge?
I appreciate any advice..
Jonathan
#52632 - in reply to #52045
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Posted 11/9/2006 7:28 PM
Jonathan Joseph
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Date registered: Oct 2006
Location: Charleston, South Carolina
Vehicle(s): 2004 G55
Posts: 1538
1000
RE: 617A engine swap progress - Part 2

I apologize for any redundant questions. I didn't realize there was a second page to the thread and posted before reading it.
#52634 - in reply to #52045
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Posted 11/9/2006 10:38 PM
dai
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Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
2000
Re: 617A engine swap progress - Part 2

Dave, normal gauge function with a healthy 617 turbo or not; When the engine is warm the stock direct reading oil pressure gauge on 123 chassis will come off the upper peg and drop to around 2 bar. Some motors will be below at 1.5 or so and really hot in the summer that is not unusual. They peg right away above 3 bars when you get on the throttle. You may have a super sensitive gauge. Does it pin off idle pretty fast? The only bizzare problem I have encountered with MB diesel motors is a failure of the pressure relief valve spring on the oil pump in my Mother in law's 240d. Very weird gauge behavior and a new valve solved the problem. Same thing happened to my G and I knew what it was the moment it broke. Mike wanted me to get technical so I had to start tossing around the bar word.

Glad to get some sort of reading from you that makes sense on the water temp. I think the stock gauges stink. They wander, dance when the turn signals are in use and are just plain not accurate.

Our 617A's like 3000 rpm and in a TD that is around 65 to 70 mph. They are not unhappy at 3500 rpm.

Are you happy with the power in that truck now?

-Dai
#52663 - in reply to #52045
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Posted 11/9/2006 11:03 PM
DesertStar
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Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA
Vehicle(s): 85-280GE/95-G320/08-G500
Posts: 2156
2000
RE: 617A engine swap progress - Part 2

Thanks Dai...when it comes to diesels and lubrication we always value your comments knowing your farming background which always relates to proper maintenance of equipment. You are better versed in this arena as I fall more on the "meat and potatoes" side of the techncial spectrum.
Mike
#52670 - in reply to #52045
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Posted 11/9/2006 11:42 PM
dai
Expert




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
2000
Re: 617A engine swap progress - Part 2

I don't know about that. You have that spiffy concours de elegance diesel motor there.

When you all are heading west we ought to have a G gathering here at the farm. We are 45 miles from the coast. A great home base to explore this area from.

-Dai
#52673 - in reply to #52670
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Posted 11/10/2006 12:02 AM
hipine



Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
5000
RE: 617A engine swap progress - Part 2

I'd be happy to try and answer any gauge questions you didn't find answers to.

-Dave G.

#52674 - in reply to #52634
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Posted 11/10/2006 12:07 AM
stevegsmith
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Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: SF Bay Area, CA USA
Vehicle(s): 82 300GD WVO, 06 Jeep Lib CRD B99
Posts: 1301
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RE: Great to see you back, man.

Dave....HOLY JESUS! That is some serious gauging! You may as well have mounted your pecker on the dash :biggrin:. Seriously though, impressive as usual. Thanks for the thread and nice job. Can't wait to see it in person.

Regarding the compressor and mounting an axial type. I just learned that the tensioner set-up I had on my york bracket conversion wasn't sufficient. The bracket actually cracked near the tensioner mount, bending forward. Needless to say, the AC is beltless at the moment. At some point I'll have to pull it and add some reinforcement after figuring out what type of tensioner to use.

Again, nice job.

Steve
#52675 - in reply to #52606
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Posted 11/10/2006 12:14 AM
hipine



Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
5000
Re: 617A engine swap progress - Part 2

dai - 11/9/2006 8:38 PM ....Are you happy with the power in that truck now?

Very much so. Its no rocket ship. And coming off a light, I've shifted twice before I get across the intersection, so it takes some getting used to. But the driveability is more to my tastes than that of the M110. I like the way the torque curve sort of "rises to meet you" as speed and RPMs drop going up a grade.  And when it's cruising along at 55, on about 7-8 lbs of boost, giving a little welly is rewarded with a nice rush that was just never there with the low compression M110.

It just goes to show you the numbers don't lie. The performance I'm getting is exactly what I expeced when comparing the torque curves of the two motors.

I might like to fine tune the gearing a little, but in all honesty I have to remember not to be too hasty and try the performance in a wider range of use than just my commute.  I need to get it fully loaded, get it off road, etc.  I'll have time to do all that before I change anything.

Mark is going to have a look at it tomorrow and take care of any fine tuning it needs.  After that I'll fill the tank and in a month or so, have some honest fuel economy numbers to report.  Just from my first partial tank though, it looks like 18 will be doable.  A 50% improvement over what I was averaging long term with the M110. 

Thanks for all your help and advice.

-Dave G.

#52676 - in reply to #52663
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Posted 11/10/2006 12:25 AM
hipine



Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
5000
RE: 617A engine swap progress - Part 2

I didn't mean to ignore your engine braking question the first time around....It just came about after I couldn't really do much to evaluate it!  

Engine braking is definitely more pronounced from the 23:1 compression 3 liter than from he 7:1 compression 2.8!  Keeps me honest on gear changes, having to be better at matching revs to keep it smooth.  The gear changes and engine braking effects are of course also all a little different due to the fact I have the lower ratio box from the 300GD in there now too, so everything's being re-learned.  Like I mentioned to Dai, it's quite interesting to bin in 3rd out of four just getting across an intersection!  I'm trying to keep after it though, and once learned where the optimal shift points and gear choices are, and rpms for speeds in each gear, it rewards with really nice driveability and performance.

Keep thinking happy thoughts.  They really help!

-Dave G.

#52678 - in reply to #52613
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Posted 11/10/2006 5:16 AM
Jean
Veteran


Date registered: May 2006
Location: Belgium
Vehicle(s): 1980 SWB 300GD
Posts: 103
100
RE: 617A on veggie?

BenzDieselTuner - 11/9/2006 6:17 AM
how many liters is a carbouy of raps oel??????


Here you are :

"Carboy (Carbouy)
A carboy (carbouy) is a glass container ideally suited for making wine. Typically, they come in sizes of two, three, five, six, and seven and a half gallons (7.5) --with a five gallon carbouy being the "standard" size. Containers larger than seven and a half gallons are too heavy for most to easily work with, or lift. Carboys (carbouys) have a very narrow "neck" and a narrow opening that allows for insertion of a stopper and air-lock."

Cheers

Jean

#52691 - in reply to #52553
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Posted 11/10/2006 5:48 AM
DesertStar
Expert




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA
Vehicle(s): 85-280GE/95-G320/08-G500
Posts: 2156
2000
RE: 617A engine swap progress - Part 2

Since a lot of diesel enthusiasts are monitoring this string I thought it appropriate to post this link which has a pictorial of the worn internal components of the 617 motor etc etc. I found it pretty informative especially on how important it is to take care of your "oil burner"
http://dieselgiant.com/mercedes617engineinternals.htm

Mike
#52696 - in reply to #52045
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Posted 11/10/2006 10:16 AM
hipine



Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
5000
Engine pix

Thanks for that link!  It is a lot of good pix of the internals.  Simple and effective.  I'm sorry I didn't share more of my process, but in order to document a job like that usually makes the job take 2-3x as long as it normally would, and I just didn't feel like I had the time.  Those pix do bring back some recent memories though.  I wonder what he did with that engine.  It's sad for these to end up on a bone pile because they're nearly always repairable.  That one probably needed pistons, liners, bearings, and a valve job to be good for another 400k.

I did take a picture of the "bubble" procedure I used to time the pump that was VERY precise and much better, IMHO than the factory "droplet" procedure.  I'll get that posted one of these days.

Oh yeah, and I looked at his oil change article and MAN am I glad I don't have all that crap around the filter housing!  On Warren's recommendation I moved the heater outlet to the rear of teh head instead of teh side, so not only don't I have all that vacuum spaghetti that the EGR'd car has, but I don't even have the heter hose there.  Maybe I'll send a pic of that one of these days too. 

-Dave G.

#52713 - in reply to #52696
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Posted 11/10/2006 5:16 PM
BenzDieselTuner

Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
Re: 617A engine swap progress - Part 2

cant wait to see more PICS !!
#52753 - in reply to #52045
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Posted 11/10/2006 10:52 PM
hipine



Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
5000
Close the book on this one boys and girls!

I'm reminded of a quote I heard from Ricky Skaggs when he talked about being part of the "Three Pickers" concert where he played with Doc Watson and Earl Scruggs.  Ricky said, "....I can't say it's a dream come true, because I never dreamed something like this could happen...."

That's about where I am with the performance of the G after Mark spent half the morning tweaking the injection pump.  Holy cow!  I was happy to be able to do hills at 45-50 in top gear at full throttle.  Now I'm doing those same hills at 55-60, and not even floored!  Remember how I talked about the torque curve "coming up to meet you" as speed and revs drop on a hill?  Well now the speed and revs don't drop, at least not on the grades I'm doing, unless I let up on the pedal.  And if I press all the way down on the pedal, I'm actually still accelerating up to rev limits.....In top gear!  On steep grades!

I'm sure a little bit of this is off to the porting I did on the head and manifolds recommended by Dai and AMZ (THANKS GUYS!), but it sure didn't run like this before Mark's ministrations.  He told me he didn't do anything extreme, "...'cause I don't want you beating on it...", but just got everything tweaked in and oh what a difference.

Like Ricky said, "...I can't say it's a dream come true beause I never dreamed something like this could happen..."  I couldn't be more pleased with this outcome.

But maybe the best part was the conversation I had with Mark after my test drive as he was stripping the hull of a hydroplane he's restoring.  He'd say things like, "Thanks for letting me do that." Relating how the modern cars with computerized this and that didn't allow the kind of satisfaction in craftsmanship that the old ones would reward.  And that now he has to turn to his boats and tractors hobbies to get the satisfaction he used to get from working on customers' cars in his shop.  It was also kind of fun that he admitted, "I don't know why I do all this stuff for you, but I just like you and feel like you're a good person.  Anyone else coming in, asking for advice, borrowing books, stuff like that, I would have told them to get the *&#@ out and don't come back.  But with you it's all fun and rewarding like I haven't had in a long time."

How the hell does that happen?  The mechanic feeling good about working on my car?  Doing it for fun.  Saying things like, "I did it like it was my own....like I haven't done one of those in years.....I pulled out tweaks I thought I'd forgotten about..."  And maybe best of all was Billie at the front desk saying in a separate conversation with her later, "He must have been having fun because I didn't see him all morning and he wasn't in here cursing at me about it, which is more than I can say for most of the work he does any more."

Only once did I try to ask him what he did.  It was in association with a problem I had where, even with the car fully warm, if I shut it off and tried to re-start, it would spin all day doing nothing unless I gave it 5-10 seconds of glow before trying to start.  After Mark worked on it that problem was GONE.  Try the key warm and it fires right off now with no glow.  I asked him what he did to fix that and he said,

"Can't tell you.  At least not until you come back with beer."

And I will......  And not to find out what he did to my truck.

All the best to everyone, and thanks to everyone for the help and moral support along the way.  Hopefully there are many miles of enjoyment ahead.  Not least of which, putting some of those miles on to visit some of you fine folks!

-Dave G.

#52793 - in reply to #52045
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Posted 11/11/2006 1:03 AM
dai
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Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
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Re: 617A engine swap progress - Part 2

Fantastic Dave. Sounds like you have the Mambo Combo now and a great mechanic.

Cheers,

-Dai
#52800 - in reply to #52663
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