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Bill K
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
| Re: tires or chains-what's better
Hi,
attached is the address to a guy that does 4X4 tours in Romania, contact him to see what works and don't work.
If he don't know, nobody does.
http://www.xventure.net/en/4x4_contact.php |
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Skyline
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
| Re: tires or chains-what's better
I would use the original 6x16 MB rim with 235-85-16 Winter tires
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Loki Laufeyjarson
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: 66°N, 19°W
Vehicle(s):
| Re: tires or chains-what's better
-UG- - 1/29/2007 3:00 PM
You really can't use the Iceland as a reference point for winter driving. You guys have a very unique reason for driving super huge and super wide tires due to your conditions. The rest of the world has very different winter conditions and therefore very different strategies that are applied. E.g. if you would come to my playground with your super wide glacier-tires, you couldn't get beyond the fireplace and that is next to a "road". Here the studded narrow but tall winter tire outperforms all other tires on most days. I never change tires for winter, so I drive the same M/T's all year round.
We rarely use chains. For one, they destroy tree roots and hence the trees and mosts landowners won't even allow to use them and it takes away all the challenge so what's the point?
-UG-
We went through this wide/narrow discussion here 20 years ago. You dont se the narrow tires anymore among those who frequently drive in snowy conditions. There is however a lot of carbide studs around here and fit as well to wide tires as narrow tires. This method has nothing to do with geograpical setting.
If your theories of narrow tires beeing better than big and wide.... Why dont you see snowmobiles on narrow 20 cm wide tracks?
And why do skiers prefer wider skis when the snow is soft?
If you can drive through snow on hard skinny tires you must only do that to get more powder for your nose.......
Thing is that everybody that has to do winterdriving in remote areas here uses tires that can be run on low pressures. Majority of those tires newer make any contact with glaciers. This is just farmers, power and telecommunication companies, ambulances and the average "Joe" that needs to drive from one place to the other on snowy countryroads.
But I allso admit that we have all heard a well nown story from the middle east about a gay that outperformed others by walking on water.
It can be just as useful t "walk" over the snow instead of "swimming through". But as before, you realy have to see, to belive  |
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nugat
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Jan 2007
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Vehicle(s): 280GE, 290GD, c303
Posts: 876
| Re: tires or chains-what's better
I have never been to Iceland but it sure is my priority destination.
Indeed most northern and mountainous European countries promote or enforce the use of winter tires.
The widest BFG winter slaloms you can get are 235. My dunlops grand trek are 265 and this is the widest I have seen.
Most of the countries I know rely on snow removal from the roads within hours of snowfall. Usually winter tires can handle such situations. Scandinavia from what I know allows the use of studs--the rest of Europe does not. Maybe the snowfalls are so big there that removal takes longer or roads are let to have the snow hardened by itself? (it is a question).
What is it like in Iceland? Do you drive those monster trucks on the roads as well, or off-road? How is the snow removal handled there?
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-UG-
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: Jun 2006
Location: Finland
Vehicle(s): GD300, S350 CDI
Posts: 446
| Re: tires or chains-what's better
Loki Laufeyjarson - 1/29/2007 6:57 PM
We went through this wide/narrow discussion here 20 years ago. You dont se the narrow tires anymore among those who frequently drive in snowy conditions. There is however a lot of carbide studs around here and fit as well to wide tires as narrow tires. This method has nothing to do with geograpical setting.
If your theories of narrow tires beeing better than big and wide.... Why dont you see snowmobiles on narrow 20 cm wide tracks?
And why do skiers prefer wider skis when the snow is soft?
If you can drive through snow on hard skinny tires you must only do that to get more powder for your nose.......
Thing is that everybody that has to do winterdriving in remote areas here uses tires that can be run on low pressures. Majority of those tires newer make any contact with glaciers. This is just farmers, power and telecommunication companies, ambulances and the average "Joe" that needs to drive from one place to the other on snowy countryroads.
But I allso admit that we have all heard a well nown story from the middle east about a gay that outperformed others by walking on water.
It can be just as useful t "walk" over the snow instead of "swimming through". But as before, you realy have to see, to belive :)
That is just plain stupid, but I'll put that a side. But out of accident you touch exactly the issue: if your aim is to float on the snow, then you need really wide tires. With G's weight, 12.5" wide will do you nothing. But in most cases floating a G is not an option or the problem, so one must attempt something else. E.g. if you have 50cm of new powder snow over iced ground, you need either to run about 200km/h or have full track like a snowmobile to avoid sinking in. Neither sounds like something I would enjoy.
-UG- |
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460332
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Europe
Vehicle(s):
| Re: tires or chains-what's better
I agree with Fenalaar, be sure to avoid the MT and AT tires, forget the theoretical presumptions about siping, wet snow, slush, screw on studs, tire size and air pressure.
Bring 4 chains, steering chains on front and snow chains on rear wheels. Ordinary narrower winter tires has a softer rubber mixture that grips better in snow, when problems, mount the chains tight. The GW is that heavy you will never ride ON snow, when it gets too deep the car will dig down til it hang on the chassi. For on-road use, look to WRC/rally, they always use a very narrow tire for higher ground pressure, -and of course special (big) studs... |
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Loki Laufeyjarson
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: 66°N, 19°W
Vehicle(s):
| Snow, cars and transport
I know that transport here in Iceland is a little different from most other countries.
Offroad driving for example has longer history here than road driving! Cars were simply put into use in many regions decades before roads were built.
There have never been trains here and we basicly jumped straight from the horses to drive cars on horse tracks as the only means of land transport.
The size of Iceland is 100.000 Km2 (similar to Scotland and Wales combined), Population 300.0000 and thereof 230.000 living in the wery SW corner.
The rest of the country is therefor not densely populated.....
This method of using low tirepressure and big tires is something that came out of necessity some 25 years ago.
Im not going into that history but today this is part of our transportation. big proportion of 4x4 vehicles (4x4 pickups, Landcruisers, LR, etc) are run on 12.5 wide tires (or more) and 33"x12,5" is a mainstream tire. Most car importers offer their 4x4 with modification packages for bigger tires and full warranty. I can say for myself that I would be better off in a Subaru than having a G on 215 tires.
Big tires are simply necessary here and are used equally on dry higways, snowy roads in winter, raugh higland tracks with open rivers in summer and to cross the interior highland outside roads in winter. Im not talking about some special made cars that are only driven offroads, I am just talking about every day cars that are used dayly for what ever use you have for a car that day. The main difference is that you can continue to drive those cars when the going get tough.
I can say that the main aim of 4x4 modifications here is to mount big tires without fucking up general drive comfort and road safety at the same time as you are maximizing snow and offroad performance. At the same time you want to maintain smooth look on those often dayly drives.
This is a tipical scene from a gas station in the countryside in summer, showing a G and a minivan...
http://www.f4x4.is/new/photoalbum/default.aspx?file=ferdamyndir/376...
UG
I have full respect for Nokia snow tires, Those are some of the best that I have used on roads with slight snow and/or ice.
if you have 50cm of new powder snow over iced ground, you need either to run about 200km/h or have full track like a snowmobile to avoid sinking in. Neither sounds like something I would enjoy. -UG-
But Think UG! What if the snow dept was 100 cm! -or 400 cm! I must say that under that conditions you would be better off with a Nokia cell phone (to call for a snowplow) than narrow Nokia wintertires.
The big question here is: Are you digging down to a solid surface at a shallow dept under the snow, -or is there no solid surface at a resonable depth?
Unimog was once considered capable car for snowdriving, narraow tall tires that could "plow" through deep snow down to a hard surface. But what if the snow was to deep for the Unimog? A stuck unimog is a stuck unimog, -but you could allways send a hilux pickup, at 2 PSI ground/tire pressure, to pick up the unimog driver.
I have simply spent to much time on hardpumped narrow tires and snow chains where I can drive easily today by just lowering the airpressure in the tires.
Example:
G weights 2.5 tons. Tire pressure is 40 PSI. Ground pressure is 40PSI
You lower the tire pressure down to 4 PSI Ground pressure now is only 10% of what it was before.
If your tire is big, you can continue this game and go down to 2 PSI. Ground pressure is now 5% of what it was before. THAT IS LIKE DIRIVING A G THAT WEIGHTS 125 KG!
Another thing worthwhile mentioning is how the modifications needed to mount those tires have evolved over time. There are other important issues than airpressure.
This is a Toyota Landcruiser that was modifyed for 44" tires in late 80´
http://www.f4x4.is/new/photoalbum/default.aspx?file=cars/5147/38618
As you can see, the car is stupidly high, rims are narrow and offroad and higway performance is limited by the extreme high point of gravity.
Here below is a link to a Toyota fourrunner on 46" tires that was built some 2-3 years ago. It has by far better suspension and weight distribution between front and back axle. The main difference is that the later modified car has by far lower center of gravity and therefor much better handling under all conditions.
http://www.f4x4.is/new/photoalbum/default.aspx?file=ferdamyndir/507...
Both vehicles are street legal.
Daily use...
Farmers rounding up sheep in late autumn.
http://www.f4x4.is/new/photoalbum/default.aspx?file=byggingar/3988/...
The same cars are used driving the kids to school or getting groceries.
To cross the higland it is necessary to ford a few rivers. Here a Nissan on 38" tires helps a small wheeled Cherokee over a glaciar melt.
http://www.f4x4.is/new/photoalbum/default.aspx?file=oldsite/27/6407
Typical grocery getters in summer, 35" Nissan and 33" Mitsubishi
http://www.f4x4.is/new/photoalbum/default.aspx?file=oldsite/1208/75...
This mainstream use of bigger tires has resulted in companies that modify cars, sell and manufacture components and specialize in drivetrain, rims etc.
Fender flares for instance are necessary when big part of the fender is cut away and wider tires must be cowered.
http://www.brettakantar.is/?pid=myndir&iUndir=20
http://www.alltplast.net/?a=4
Rims
http://www.felgur.is/Album-2005.htm
Mods
http://www.arctictrucks.com/?PageID=978
http://www.breytir.is/
35" is considered "the biggest small tire" and car should drive just as well on 35" as on stock tires if steering, rim size, suspension and other vital things are not fucked up by some amateur "lifts"
I´m simply to old for narrow tires and chains.
Loki
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Loki Laufeyjarson
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: 66°N, 19°W
Vehicle(s):
| RE: Snow, cars and transport
Just because I mentioned Subaru....
This one is quite capable.
http://www.f4x4.is/new/photoalbum/default.aspx?file=oldsite/692/417...
Subaru is a popular car here and I have positive experience of subaru.....
UG - have you considered swapping your G for a Subaru?
Loki |
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4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| Re: tires or chains-what's better
Bill,
when expecting a wide variety of road conditions (no off-road included) I would always have AT's mounted. If there is snow possible, I carry chains. |
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cball
Member
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
Vehicle(s): '86 280GE
Posts: 44
| Re: tires or chains-what's better
PS. I cannot find BF Goodrich A/T in the 33/10.5/r15. Maybe they don't exist? Any other equally good brand you would recommend? This is the exact tire I'm using on my Gwagen so they definately exist. It's a relatively unusual size, I think so you will probably have to get your tire place to order them for you. When I bought mine it took a couple weeks to get five together for me with tires coming from dealers all around western Canada. Chris.
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roughneck
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: UK, Germany & USA
Vehicle(s): 270 cdi.300 GD 300 GE.lwb 300 GE.swb. Disco 2
Posts: 4398
| Re: tires or chains-what's better
4x4abc - 1/30/2007 6:43 PM
Bill,
when expecting a wide variety of road conditions (no off-road included) I would always have AT's mounted. If there is snow possible, I carry chains.
Thanks Harald, As ussual concise and to the point |
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G4Garret
Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oak Ridge - Knoxville - Windrock Tennessee
Vehicle(s): 2000 G500, U1100, SLK350, LR 101, WC-63 6x6
Posts: 243
| RE: tires or chains-what's better
Cool thread! Anyone have G500 specific advice? I'm going to be in Nordern Ontario for a while, and would like to just go straight for a couple pair of chains. I've got the MY 2004 stock Yoko 265/60R18s on the wide offset wheels (can't remember the offset). I'm thinking those diamond pattern pewag chains like I had for my RR. Any clearance issues on a G500?
Any advice appreciated.
Garret
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4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| RE: tires or chains-what's better
Garret,
diamond pattern is best. Get them from tirechain.com. The owner is a forum member and drives a G500 himself.
http://tirechain.com/265-60R-18.htm
Edited by 4x4abc 2/7/2007 2:03 AM
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G4Garret
Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oak Ridge - Knoxville - Windrock Tennessee
Vehicle(s): 2000 G500, U1100, SLK350, LR 101, WC-63 6x6
Posts: 243
| RE: tires or chains-what's better
Perfect! Exactly what I was thinking. Thanks for the excellent advice Harald.
Garret
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