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Clear Creek East Side Harrison
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Posted 1/31/2007 11:50 PM
Speedmaster
Member


Date registered: Dec 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC
Vehicle(s): 2002 G500 - Sold 88' 300GD -Sold 08' LR2
Posts: 40
25
Clear Creek East Side Harrison

Do you guys think my stock G500 would make it through the terrain pictured below? The land rover looked like it needed the chains to get across the sheet ice. I would assume I would need to get some chains if I were to try this. Or else wait at least until the snow melted. There is a nice Hot spring I would like to go on the other side of the hill. The pictures were from 2 weeks ago.



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Attachments terrain.jpg (153KB - 3 downloads)
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Attachments terrain3.jpg (94KB - 4 downloads)
Attachments terrain4.jpg (110KB - 3 downloads)
#61380
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Posted 2/1/2007 12:03 AM
Adoni
Expert




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Sacramento, CA
Vehicle(s): '00 G500, '15 C300 4Matic, '06 L322 G4
Posts: 1283
1000
Re: Clear Creek East Side Harrison

I don't see any reason why you couldn't get through with a good set of tires, chains on all four wheels and slow/safe driving.
#61381 - in reply to #61380
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Posted 2/1/2007 1:14 AM
Speedmaster
Member


Date registered: Dec 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC
Vehicle(s): 2002 G500 - Sold 88' 300GD -Sold 08' LR2
Posts: 40
25
RE: Clear Creek East Side Harrison

I was worried about the ground clearance not being enough.
#61387 - in reply to #61380
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Posted 2/1/2007 1:44 AM
AlanMcR
Expert




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, CA, Los Altos
Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL
Posts: 3500
2000
RE: Clear Creek East Side Harrison

Looking at the pictures, the LR was dragging it's diffs towards the end. The last shots are probably as far as it could go. With narrower tires, no chains and a heavy G you won't get as far. With the same tires and chains you do have a chance to make it just as far with the lockers giving you better traction. In the end the locker advantage may just get you more firmly stuck.
#61389 - in reply to #61387
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Posted 2/1/2007 2:07 AM
trc
Elite Veteran




Date registered: Jun 2006
Location: Estonia
Vehicle(s): MB G350DT '93; MB 300 SD '83 ; Subaru Forester,
Posts: 786
500
Re: Clear Creek East Side Harrison

Imho - this terrain is doable with your G no chains also. Good winter tyres with studs, diff locks and commons sense - all what you need. PS. Narrower tyre works much better in snow. With G you can dig into a snow up to the half door and nothing really happens. Thing goes grazy if ice isnt tough enough
#61391 - in reply to #61380
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Posted 2/1/2007 2:52 AM
hus55
Expert




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: north cyprus,lapta.
Vehicle(s): 300GDS, G300 LONG,300GDT CLK55 AMG CAB.
Posts: 2230
2000
Re: Clear Creek East Side Harrison

awesome pics,quite extreme aswell.standard G would struggle but a fully prepared G with a lift should manage the terrain providing theres no hazzards ahead (like cliff edges etc)
you must really read the road before hand.
#61398 - in reply to #61380
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Posted 2/1/2007 3:35 AM
Loki Laufeyjarson



Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: 66°N, 19°W
Vehicle(s):
500
Re: Clear Creek East Side Harrison

trc - 2/1/2007 6:07 AM
Narrower tyre works much better in snow. With G you can dig into a snow up to the half door and nothing really happens. :)

This is the snowdriving myth about narrow tires in a nutshell: It gets you door deep in the snow and nothing happens!

Like I said before in a recent chain/tire thread: Narrov tires ar ok when snow is so thin that it is possible to dig down to a solid surface underneath.
But when the snow comes thicker you simply have to drive over it.


Judging from the relatively shallow footsteps in front of the LR in the picture, I assume the photographer did not sink in more than 20 cm.
Now you should measure the area of the sole of your shoes and measure your own weight. With that data you can easily calculate your own ground pressure(those living in UK or USA will ofcause calculate that unit in PSI )
With tires of resonable size you can easily lower airpressure to reach groundpressure that is lower than a walking man.

In my opinion it is logs and ice that are making driving demanding on that track and chains or studs are needed. But the snowy part seams to be a piece of cake with the right tirepressure.
Narrow snowtires are better for road use in shallow and easy snow. But when you can no longer reach the road surface underneath you need another method.

This is no rocket science. Or is it?



hus55 - 2/1/2007 6:52 AM
...a fully prepared G with a lift should manage the terrain .

I have allready pointed out the simple physics of floating on snow. Now I need to be educated how lifting would make this snow driving easyer.
In my experience it is the axles that stop the progress when you sink in the snow. I guess with 25cm suspension lift you could drive with the axles slightly deeper and getting part of the snow above the axles (like a cheese cutter or a horizontal plow). But who wants a 25 cm suspension lift?

If you realy have to drive throug and dont have another road or other feasible transport, you or others will sooner or later come with a solution that works. -No matter if its comming "from the other direction" and stands against generally accepted methodsadn experience.
But remember, -the previous experience was: "STUCK"

Edited by Loki Laufeyjarson 2/1/2007 4:05 AM
#61404 - in reply to #61391
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Posted 2/1/2007 5:31 AM
Tjærand
Extreme Veteran




Date registered: Oct 2006
Location: Nøtterøy, Norway
Vehicle(s): 1996 G320
Posts: 403
300
RE: Clear Creek East Side Harrison

Loki, I have never been to Iceland so I don't know how the snow conditions are there but I believe you have stable snow conditions for a long period. Here in Norway, at least by the coast snow conditions vary a lot. Usually the temperature hovers around 0c and when the snow becomes wet and soggy you wont float on top of it no matter how much you air down. Up in the mountains the snow conditions are very different with packed snow, -10 c and airing down will work to get you to the door of your cabin. I think airing down is a special application for special conditions and will probably not work very well for most G drivers with maybe 32" tires and no lift.

In most european countries we drive from wet sloppy snow down in the valley to hard packed snow on the mountain pass, we dont drive for miles on homogenous snow (and we are mostly not allowed to drive off the road). At least in Norway, snow is not just snow ;-)
#61410 - in reply to #61380
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Author
Posted 2/1/2007 7:12 AM
Loki Laufeyjarson



Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: 66°N, 19°W
Vehicle(s):
500
RE: Clear Creek East Side Harrison

Tjærand - 2/1/2007 9:31 AM

Loki, I have never been to Iceland so I don't know how the snow conditions are there but I believe you have stable snow conditions for a long period. Here in Norway, at least by the coast snow conditions vary a lot. Usually the temperature hovers around 0c and when the snow becomes wet and soggy you wont float on top of it no matter how much you air down. Up in the mountains the snow conditions are very different with packed snow, -10 c and airing down will work to get you to the door of your cabin. I think airing down is a special application for special conditions and will probably not work very well for most G drivers with maybe 32" tires and no lift.

In most european countries we drive from wet sloppy snow down in the valley to hard packed snow on the mountain pass, we dont drive for miles on homogenous snow (and we are mostly not allowed to drive off the road). At least in Norway, snow is not just snow ;-)


Tjærand,
Unfortunately we dont have stable weather here in Iceland. Weather here is as unpredictable as it can get and this winter the ski area here in the SW has only been open for 6 days. Now it is +6°C.
Yes, -I know snow conditions when the snow is so loose that I have had to pitch my tent with the skis on my feet cause otherwise I sank waist deep. In that conditions it is eaven difficult to drive snowmobiles.
The main reason behind this "low pressure driving" is that Iceland is not forested and frequent spindrift closes roads faster than the roadwork can clear it off. (Specially in remote areas where roads are cleared once a week.)
Another reason is the the big open higland where you can drive where you like when snow cowers the ground.

But this is only the background. This method of low pressure tires works anywhere where the snow is deep and a walking man does not sink more than 30-40 cm. But ofcuse you have to air down the tires and size of tire must be in proportion with weight of vehicle.
I guess that the main reason for this widespread disbelive in this method comes from lack of experience of fiddling with the tirepressure and secondly cause all 4x4 leave factory with tires that are to small for this method.
It is generally belived (outside Iceland) that it is not possible to mount bigger tires without totally fuck up the driveability of a car and secondly Im pretty sure that majority of 4x4 hardly ever leave the asphalt out of need and there is no real need for the bigger tire. (what is the need of a 4x4 is another subject). But remember, anything over 8 PSI is a hard tire for snow.
I have over the years talked agains lifting the G. On the other hand I have frequently pointed out that 35" fits well without lift and 38" fit with some more work but without fucking up steering and suspension geometry.

This low pressure method works everywhere in deep snow that has some inner strength, like spindrift or old snow where a walking person is not sinkin more than a feet. And eaven thoug you cant make the car fully float, you gain a lot by lower airpressure cause you increase the footprint a lot, wheels have less tendency to dig in and get a better grip.
The pictures above show a hard pumped LR that got past the ice and trees that I would have taken as the hard part, but got stuck on the easy snowy part due to hardpumped and small tires.

And if this "narrow is better" (which is right for relatively easy ROAD driving) was allway right, why would you bother undergoing all this http://www.f4x4.is/new/photoalbum/default.aspx?file=oldsite/692/417... when you culd just have mounted 155/85/15 studded Nokia....

I have got valuable info from this homepage and BW. Im just giving a little back.







#61415 - in reply to #61410
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Posted 2/1/2007 10:05 AM
UN Mobile

Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
RE: Clear Creek East Side Harrison

Very cool
For the car, good tires at a low pressure with chains will increase traction.
For you, warm clothes and a second vehicle with a strong strap.
enjoy the water
#61423 - in reply to #61380
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Posted 2/1/2007 11:04 AM
hipine



Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
5000
RE: Clear Creek East Side Harrison

IMO you're concerns are well placed.  That LR looked well equipped and seemed to have a lot more ground clearance than a stock G500.  I'm not just talking the "bench racing" minimum clearance under the diff, I'm talking clearance of all things that will try to "push snow" as you try that climb out of the creek that seems to have stopped the LR.

Others had good points too. Mainly that snow conditions change from day to day and one man's saturday morning powder blast is another man's Sunday afternoon sticky slog.  If I was going there, I'd want a set up just like that LR's.  His tires were probably big enough to try airing down to stay on top of the snow as much as it would allow, and at least for me, fitting the G with 38's to do that trip would be out of the question.  Another important point is that he did have the winch.  Bill Burke has an interesting point of view on his web site that stuff like lockers, tires, etc only serve to eventually get you stuck in worse places and the only thing that really gets you "un stuck" is the winch and knowledge of how to use it.

By the pix it also looks like the LR took a while (or got a late start) getting as far as he did and the time of day might have contributed to his decision to turn around rather than try and winch through.  But the bottom line is that we have no knowledge of what lies another 10, 50, 500,etc feet down that trail.

And of course nobody can tell you from a picture what could be done there.  Certainly not without a corresponding picture of the truck you propose to take.  Stock G 500, I'd set up a nice overnight camp at the trailhead and get out my snowshoes.  G 500 with 3" of lift, decent floatation tires, a good set of chains, and a winch and electrical system sized for snow recovery.....yeah, now you're talking some fun.  But I'd still bring the camping gear, snow shoes, and espresso pot.  :^)

Looks like a great spot!

Dave G.

#61427 - in reply to #61387
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Posted 2/1/2007 1:17 PM
4x4abc



Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
5000
RE: Clear Creek East Side Harrison

I am with Loki - the physiks are as easy as it gets. However, the fourwheeling community still strongly believes in myths, old husband tales and Woodoo. I have almost given up to talk about traction, flotation, resistance and traction. You will always get those "Yeah, but...." answers - almost as nobody has really listened.

Traction is the counterforce (the stuff that happens between the tires and the surface material) needed by torque to move the car, brake force to stop it and lateral force to hold it stable sideways. Traction can only be increased by adding helpers (chains, studs, profile design) on the rubber side of the equasion. The ground's friction coefficient is what it is. Period.
You always need a higher amount of traction than is needed for torque or lateral force - otherwise you'll have slipping tires (spinning and/or sliding sideways)
Wider tire do not increase traction - they create flotation. Flotation to stay on top of soft material (snow, sand etc.)
Sinking into soft materials creates more resistance than the vehicle itself already creates by its weight.
For more resistance you need more torque - and since low traction material (snow, ice etc) simply does not provide the traction needed, you'll have spinning tires. Sand is a little different - the material itself has good traction, but the particles are not stable and may move away when too much torque is applied.
The resistance in soft material initially comes from a "hill" of material constantly pushed against by the tires.
Once other vehicle parts (diffs, bumpers etc.) increase the resistance dramatically the game is over and you'll be stuck. Even worse, compressed snow (compressed by the diffs for example) turns into ice - so, reversing out might become impossible since the diffs are now resting on ice pilars.


Why would someone argue with our Icelandic expert's insight - they live with that white stuff more than most of us.

Nuff said.

Edited by 4x4abc 2/1/2007 1:19 PM
#61441 - in reply to #61415
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Posted 2/1/2007 3:12 PM
cball
Member


Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
Vehicle(s): '86 280GE
Posts: 44
25
RE: Clear Creek East Side Harrison

Well it's easy enough without the snow,

May 20-21 2005 July 29-30 2005

My guess is that as long as you had chains, you would have no problem as far as the turn off from Harrison East to the Clear Creek road. Clear Creek road is a different story though, there are enough steepish parts that it would definately be tricky, it might be mostly ok but a winch of some sort with a lot of length would definately make getting to the hot springs a better bet. I personally don't think I'd bother trying.

If I had to guess, I would think that if you can manage the first steep rise after the turn off up Clear Creek road, you will manage the whole thing fine. If you decide to go for it, bring a buddy and be careful, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see a 20degree celcius swing over the course of a day and if I remember correctly, there are a couple of avalanche chutes near the end of the road. Also have a proper axe/chainsaw with you, the tree the LR is going between in the picture was clearly something that recently fell across the road and there is no rule that says they don't fall between you and home and it certainly isn't high season for that road if you know what I mean.

For the most part there isn't likely to be too much snow, the washout in the pictures is likely to be the deepest spot because of drifting and that is just about as high as you get, having said that, it is the west coast, I've had overnight dumps more than a foot deep in my driveway this year.

Chris.



Edited by cball 2/1/2007 3:14 PM
#61448 - in reply to #61380
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Posted 2/1/2007 3:37 PM
hipine



Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
5000
RE: Clear Creek East Side Harrison

It's great to rehash the snow traction stuff now and again, but man I gotta say, thanks just for sharing the pictures of a fantastically beautiful area. 

Some people don't like to be out in the cold, but I for one have had some of my very best camping experiences ever in the super-cold weather.  I used to visit Daniel Boone National Forest in eastern Kentucky every year in mid January for a long weekend of camping, for the sole purpose of enjoying scenery a lot like your pictures.  Nights would often be below zero F, but the trees and the amazingly beautiful and unique ice sculptures that nature creates under the right conditions are truely wonders to behold.  Add to that the fact that you're usually utterly alone except for people you've chosen to be with, and there are few experiences to top it.

Long story short, I sure understand why you want to attempt it!  And thanks again for sharing the pix.

-Dave G.

#61452 - in reply to #61380
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Posted 2/1/2007 3:45 PM
hipine



Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
5000
One more clue?

If you look at the 4th picture where the LR reaches "terminal position".  You can see that the left front and right rear wheels have NOT been spinning.  See how the right font wheel is fully coated with snow mashed into the tire treads and chains?  And then notice how the other two visible tires don't show the same snow packing?

Makes me think he's got open diffs in the pumpkins and reached a cross-axled position where two lifted (or lightened) wheels = no go.  With lockers engaged, one might have rolled right on through that spot on the strength of the higher traction wheels on each axle.  Just a thought.

-Dave G.

#61454 - in reply to #61380
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Posted 2/1/2007 6:58 PM
Loki Laufeyjarson



Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: 66°N, 19°W
Vehicle(s):
500
I drive for days for a new hot spring.....

Speedmaster - 2/1/2007 3:50 AM
There is a nice Hot spring I would like to go on the other side of the hill.




Speedmaster,
I was reading through this file now and discovered I had missed the main thing in the thread, -the hot spring!
I have spent days driving or skiing cross country to reach some particular hot springs.

If my tire comments sounded to passimistic, Im going to make it up to you by posting a few links that show people that travel offroad for days to get to one of the best hot spring in Iceland. It is a warm river on the northern flanks of the volcano Mt.Kverkfjoll on the north border of Vatnajokull Ice Cap.
This hot river turns cold in summer by surface melt, but in winter it is about 41°C and eaven colder in very cold periods.
By going through some of the numbered links you find out that no obstacle is to big when a hot spring is waiting on the other side....

http://www.f4x4.is/new/search/default.aspx?search=hveragil&category...

I hope you make it to your bath.

Loki

ps.
There is only one hot spring here that is better than the one in the above link. That one is only 10 Km away and is also cold in summer...

http://outside.away.com/outside/features/200412/hard_way_freezerbur...





Edited by Loki Laufeyjarson 2/1/2007 6:59 PM
#61491 - in reply to #61380
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Posted 2/5/2007 9:11 PM
Speedmaster
Member


Date registered: Dec 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC
Vehicle(s): 2002 G500 - Sold 88' 300GD -Sold 08' LR2
Posts: 40
25
RE: Clear Creek East Side Harrison

The guy with the LR did get stuck and had to use his winch to get out. I think I'm going to wait until the snow melts a little more and then maybe give it a try.

Loki, those pics of the Hot springs are real nice. The farthest north I've been is Prudoe Bay in Alaska. Sitting in the hot springs and watching the Aurora Borealis was an awesome sight.



(LR_Stuck2.jpg)



(LR_Stuck.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments LR_Stuck2.jpg (133KB - 2 downloads)
Attachments LR_Stuck.jpg (126KB - 3 downloads)
#61908 - in reply to #61380
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Posted 2/6/2007 3:02 PM
cball
Member


Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
Vehicle(s): '86 280GE
Posts: 44
25
RE: Clear Creek East Side Harrison

If you are looking for a trip, the hot springs on Harrison West are pretty nice too, the road is a lot nicer on that side because there is/was a heli logging operation just a bit before the springs and the whole thing is at quite a bit lower elevation. 

 I expect the trickiest part of the trip would be walking from the campsite to the springs themselves.  In my opinion the camp site is pretty dodgy though.

 Double check with the forestry people if you are going from Harrison rather than Pemberton though because I have heard anecdotal reports that there was a bridge out somewhere near 20 Mile Bay.

 There are pictures of that spring on my website too if ya want to see the lay of the land.

    Chris.

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