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Iver460
Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Norway
Vehicle(s): '82 300 GD STT Cab (two other Gs in family)
Posts: 291
| Gearings - change from 4.88 (44/9) to 3.72 (41/11) - need help!
I'm posting this here as I've been trying to help a fellow Norwegian G-enthusiast to sort out his G-project. He's an eager, rather well of and impulsive guy that contacted me a few years ago as he wanted a V8 to replace his 280 GE. I mentioned to him that it was obviously possible, as there are several conversions up and running, and that I've been reading about these conversions on German G-pages 10 years ago. "Brilliant" he said, called me a few weeks later and he had bought the parts. After running into all kinds of crocks and dishonest back yard mechanics in trying to make his project run, he finally got it on the road, only to discover a thing I told him right from the start; the gearing would be wrong!
So he put me on the job of sorting out possibilities, and as I felt a kind of responsibility for mentioning the possibility of a V8 and not just telling him "Forget it" right from the start, I started exploring EPC and calculated revs and torque. He decided on a set of 41:11 (=3.72), I crosschecked bearings and eventuallities as well as I could, put him in contact with a very well reputed diff-specialist (does mostly Jeeps), he ordered the parts and of he went.
Today he called me and was rather frustrated; the diff-mechanic couldn't make the gears fit. I called the mechanic, and he says the larger diameter of the pinion moves the ring gear and carrier too close to the diff housing, so no way to make it fit without a different carrier or shaving of the ring gear. He claimed the new pinion moved the ring gear out by 6-7 mm. He doesn't want to shave of the ring gear either, as it's forged and he believes it would take too much strengt from it, while also having beeing hard machining the surface even.
So, does anyone know if there's a special carrier used with the 41/11s? Or would shaving a few mms of the carrier be a good idea? Can we eventually "port"/grind out of the diff house casting? I do eventually have a spare rear axle to try out any good or less good ideas on.
Oh, and I've been in contact with Steve Smith, he has these gears in his 300 GD, but done by the previous owner so he doesn't know how it was solved.
Hope someone is able to help, my G-friend has forked out LOADS of money on his truck and is starting to get rather desperate about this, I'm just trying to do my best to help him out.
(Oh, while hunting for solutions in EPC I came across THREE different in the 4,9-area, the classic 44/9=4.88 (stock in my friends truck), 34/7=4.857 and 49/10=4.9. If anyone has experience or a chassis number for reference for the later, I'd be interested, as the diameter for this pinion would be the closest for the 11-tooth pinion. ) |
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hipine
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
| No Ideas? Maybe a SENAGeT Shop topic?
Sorry to say it looks like you might be on your own with this one, buddy. I'm afraid the best I can do is bump the topic to see if it catches someone's eye with more smarts than me. Or maybe Sean could use the search for a tricky axle question like this to demonstrate his EPC wizardry for the folks on the Southeast North American G Treffen. I don't know anyone else I would even try to ask such a question. Good luck! -Dave G. |
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4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| RE: Gearings - change from 4.88 (44/9) to 3.72 (41/11) - need help!
Iver, it would be helpful to know which part numbers the mechanic is using - he may have ordered the wrong parts. Also, front and rear gear sets are of different size. |
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Iver460
Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Norway
Vehicle(s): '82 300 GD STT Cab (two other Gs in family)
Posts: 291
| RE: Gearings - change from 4.88 (44/9) to 3.72 (41/11) - need help!
OK, the pinion and crown wheel that the mechanic was given is A9033530610 and A9033530612, apparently same front and rear.
Maybe the research work our parts supplier and I did wasn't good enough? Chassis number of viechle is 46023317046716. |
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4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| RE: Gearings - change from 4.88 (44/9) to 3.72 (41/11) - need help!
parts front and rear are definitely different and most likely start with A601 or A602 see my list for the 6.17 gears: http://4x4abc.com/G/35.html |
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Iver460
Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Norway
Vehicle(s): '82 300 GD STT Cab (two other Gs in family)
Posts: 291
| RE: Gearings - change from 4.88 (44/9) to 3.72 (41/11) - need help!
Well, these part#s are consistent in ring- and pinion set A6683500739, which is no longer available. Problem is, he says he can't fit them in either front or rear axle. All part#s are found in the detali.ru-catalogue, which I don't really trust any more. Will propably put down the €15 for the Online EPC soon.
What's the difference on front and rear? Is the crown wheel thinner up front? How about the pinion? The main problem is the diameter of the 11-tooth pinion, which forces the ring gear too close to the diff house casting. |
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4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| RE: Gearings - change from 4.88 (44/9) to 3.72 (41/11) - need help!
I only remember that the front is smaller in both ring and pinion Mike Serpe has pictures - or search on this forum, he posted the pictures some time ago |
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fernweh
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Calabasas, CA - Centenario, BCS - Luebeck, Germany
Vehicle(s): Few Mercedes-Benz, a Toyota Amphibious and a Vespa
| RE: Gearings - change from 4.88 (44/9) to 3.72 (41/11) - need help!
Iver460 - 2/25/2008 1:34 PM
Well, these part#s are consistent in ring- and pinion set A6683500739, which is no longer available. Problem is, he says he can't fit them in either front or rear axle. All part#s are found in the detali.ru-catalogue, which I don't really trust any more. Will propably put down the €15 for the Online EPC soon.
What's the difference on front and rear? Is the crown wheel thinner up front? How about the pinion? The main problem is the diameter of the 11-tooth pinion, which forces the ring gear too close to the diff house casting.
I still have the gears from the 300GE laying in the garage 4.37:1 and I have measured once before - can't find the pictures right now, but the part#' pointed to the 460 as well.....Do you want me to measure the ring gears again plus pics? |
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EuroTruck
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oakwood, Georgia - USA
Vehicle(s): 2012 Audi A4 Avant S-Line, 2015 Ridley NOAH SL
Posts: 518
| RE: Gearings - change from 4.88 (44/9) to 3.72 (41/11) - need help!
Iver, The ring gear and pinions you specified are typically used in the W463's and sometimes with a different carrier than what is found in your friend's W460.
A simple thing to check first: Did the mechanic properly line everything up on inside using the spacer shims? The shims used on the pinion and in the axle housing are generally 5 to 6 mm thick. This dimension is similar to what the mechanic says is causing the misalignment in the differential. I'll keep  until we can help you figure it out.  -SP |
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Iver460
Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Norway
Vehicle(s): '82 300 GD STT Cab (two other Gs in family)
Posts: 291
| RE: Gearings - change from 4.88 (44/9) to 3.72 (41/11) - need help!
I sourched the part#s from a 461 290 GDT, it also appears that this is a gearing used in Sprinters.
I believe the mechanic completely stripped the diff from shims, what he found was that the shiming wasn't the problem and that there was enough room there, but the bolts attatching the carrier to the ring gear would toutch the diff house casting. He said that a carrier with counter sunk bolt MIGHT just make it, but wasn't too optimistic about that either.
Now there is a 41/11-diff shown on Hans Hehls site, this is from a Sprinter, but would someone with better G-diff-knowledge than I be able to spot if the carrier is much different from the ones usually found in 44/9-diffs? The Sprinter would ofcourse have a different diff house casting, so the space issues could be compensated for there.'
http://www.hehlhans.de/bilder/autos/g240/diff/diff8.jpg
I'm :banghead:, I hate not beeing able to sort this out, especially when knowing Steve Smith is happily driving his 300 GD around with that very ratio. If our mechanic can't sort it, I'll pull my spare rear axle out from the garage and make it fit, even if it involves shaving a few mms of the ring gear, reworking the carrier and grinding out the diff housing.
Oh, and thanks for with me, I'll make a write up for this in the end!
Edited by Iver460 2/26/2008 6:11 AM
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Iver460
Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Norway
Vehicle(s): '82 300 GD STT Cab (two other Gs in family)
Posts: 291
| RE: Gearings - change from 4.88 (44/9) to 3.72 (41/11) - need help!
Thank you very much for your offer, Karl, although not super relevant as your pinion would be much smaller than the 11-tooth we're using, it would still be interesting to know! |
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bram_r
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2007
Location: the Netherlands
Vehicle(s): 1984 MB 280GE, 1982 MB 300GD, 1986 Subaru XT 4WD
Posts: 1659
| Re: Gearings - change from 4.88 (44/9) to 3.72 (41/11) - need help!
To update this one as I was doing some EPC'ing tonight; according to my EPC, the front and rear axle indeed both use ring and pinion assembly A6683500739.
This set is consisting of pinion gear A9033530610 and ring gear A9033530612.
The set apparently isn't availble anymore from MB, but I get prices on the seperate parts.
I've read some these gears are also used in Sprinter vans. That would maybe make a nice source as these are pretty prices parts...
I know it's a bit dusty topic, but did Iver or the axle mechanic finally pull it off to install this R&P set in a set of 460 4.88 axles?
Bram |
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Razon
Date registered: Jul 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Vehicle(s): 1986 280ge Cabrio, 617A, 5sp manual
| Re: Gearings - change from 4.88 (44/9) to 3.72 (41/11) - need help!
Holy Batman!...diggin out old threads? 
Unless your really want to prove a point...there is NO WAY you'd have to machine/grind parts yourself.
I bet it was poor choice of components. If the same ratio gears were indeed previously installed in a 460 housing, then the diff carrier must have been different.
Even if you shim the whole carrier 5mm (which is insane!...the adjustment is normally over 100 times less) the locker won't engage properly anymore without further modifications. |
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bram_r
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2007
Location: the Netherlands
Vehicle(s): 1984 MB 280GE, 1982 MB 300GD, 1986 Subaru XT 4WD
Posts: 1659
| Re: Gearings - change from 4.88 (44/9) to 3.72 (41/11) - need help!
Anyone with experience on this board altering their Ring and Pinion sets in 460 axles?
Is this 3.72 set of a different design of some sort? These are also availble in the heavy duty version axle with disc brakes rear. Maybe this line of axles uses a bigger diff?
Do all 290GDT's have heavy duty axles?
Anyway, if I can get my hand on a pair of sprinter sets (may they be the same) for a good deal, I may change my 4.88 axles to 3.72 matching my 602a powerplant.
Not sure if that sprinter set fits the 460 axle of course...
3.72 axles sets rarely come by second hand, only saw a new set offered recently, but way over my budget...
Edited by bram_r 4/12/2012 7:40 PM
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chris505
Date registered: May 2007
Location: San Francisco
Vehicle(s): '79 280E/'80 280GE/'00 G500
| RE: Gearings - change from 4.88 (44/9) to 3.72 (41/11) - need help!
I believe HD axles use the same R&P, differential and bearings as normal duty axles, only the cast steel housing is different to accept the thicker "bottle" axle tubes. Im not sure if all 290GDTs came with HD axles or not. I do know that not all 290s has a HD "bottle" front axle, many had normal front axles.
I have changed my 280GE R&P from 4.88 to 5.33 and will be changing again to 6.17 soon. I have also changed a customer's 350GDT R&P from 4.11 to 4.9. And I have also replaced bearings, diff carriers, bevel gears and other components in several other 460 and 463 axles over the years.
All production years of G axles I have opend from 1979 to ~2005 have different size R&P between the front and rear axles, the front axles have always had a smaller sized ring and pinion gear. The difference between 460 and 463 front R&P is the "spiral" pattern of the teeth is clockwise on one and counter clockwise on the other, you cannot fit 463 front R&P in a 460 axle.
From what I have seen (in 1980 280GE LWB and on 1993 350GDT LWB and on a 2002 G500 LWB), the differential carriers are almost exactly the same front to rear accept the front carrier has 5 diff lock teeth and the rear has 6 teeth.
I replaced a noisy (chipped tooth) rear 4.88 R&P in a 1979 207D sprinter van (602) and I used a 4.88 280GE front R&P as a replacement, exact same part.
Edited by chris505 4/12/2012 9:18 PM
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bram_r
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2007
Location: the Netherlands
Vehicle(s): 1984 MB 280GE, 1982 MB 300GD, 1986 Subaru XT 4WD
Posts: 1659
| RE: Gearings - change from 4.88 (44/9) to 3.72 (41/11) - need help!
Well, finally some clues on this issue.
I bought a 41/11 ring and pinion set this week from a guy who had some experience in modifying R & P gears. This set is used in 290GDT and Sprinter vans.
Basicly this set will fit with no problems in the rear axle, so with the set I bought I can modify my rear axle.
The front axle has a smaller diff housing and thus will not accept this R & P set.
What then can be done is the following:
- remove front axle tubes from front axle housing (drill out welds and press out axle tubes).
- from a rear axle (or Sprinter axle), remove axle tubes so that the diff housing is a seperate part.
- press in and weld front axle tubes in this rear axle diff housing and weld holes.
All doable, but a small project anyway.
Keep you posted,
Bram
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chris505
Date registered: May 2007
Location: San Francisco
Vehicle(s): '79 280E/'80 280GE/'00 G500
| RE: Gearings - change from 4.88 (44/9) to 3.72 (41/11) - need help!
Bram,
Are you aware or concerned that modifying a front axle to accept a rear differential housing will change the driveshaft u joint angles? I see the potential for vibes.
I have done exactly as you say to a rear G500 axle, end result was terrific, not too difficult if you have the correct tools.
Are there any older sprinters with 3.72 gearing? It is likely those older rear axles also use the smaller R&P found in 460 front axles, the 1983 207D had small 4.88:1 gearset found in front 460 axle, and the EPC shows 41/11 as an option. This would my first choice instead of making an axle from scratch, too many angles to get wrong.
Edited by chris505 8/7/2013 1:55 PM
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bram_r
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2007
Location: the Netherlands
Vehicle(s): 1984 MB 280GE, 1982 MB 300GD, 1986 Subaru XT 4WD
Posts: 1659
| Re: Gearings - change from 4.88 (44/9) to 3.72 (41/11) - need help!
Why would the drive angles change? The axle tubes will be welded in the same orientation as the standard front axle.
Unfortunately, the 41/11 set is not found on 460G's, therefor no chance putting 'an old set' in my front axle.
As said, 461 GDT and Sprinter sets use the same partnumber. On 461 290GDT, the front and rear axle use the same R & P set. I believe on 460's G's, the front and rear axle use different sets.
gr. Bram |
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bram_r
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2007
Location: the Netherlands
Vehicle(s): 1984 MB 280GE, 1982 MB 300GD, 1986 Subaru XT 4WD
Posts: 1659
| RE: Gearings - change from 4.88 (44/9) to 3.72 (41/11) - need help!
I got this set from a 2004 Sprinter 208cdi:
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41:11 Ring and Pinion set.
Partnumbers are similar to these found on early 461 290GDT's.
Didn't know this gearing also was present on the CDI Sprinters, thought I had to have the 212/312/412 sets.
Anyway, hopefully later this year I can start changing the gearing of my 4,88:1 axles.
gr. bram |
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Bigger
New user
Date registered: Oct 2016
Location: Burgas, Bulgaria
Vehicle(s): W460 230GE 86'
Posts: 4
| Re: Gearings - change from 4.88 (44/9) to 3.72 (41/11) - need help!
The topic is very interesting, any new information here? I was changed my front axle R & P set with another one with my gear ratio - 44:10=4,4. I buy it from Russia, from some guy, who told me that set is come from some old bus (suggest 207/307) but i don't know exactly what type. Is interesting to know for the future if i have some problems with front axle. I have 3.2 litters engine, m104 with 722.3 (4 speed automatic transmission) and the car going very well but only to 100 km/h... after this is terrible. I thinking to change the transmission but you know, a lot of problems with the electronic 722.6 and old 722.5 who comes too long. May be the best way is to look for 41/11 rings and pinions. Did anybody have some success with that change? |
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