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Source to find 5 speed gearbox
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Posted 2/11/2013 8:00 PM
autonovice
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Date registered: Dec 2006
Location: New York City
Vehicle(s): '05 G55K, '92 350GDT
Posts: 684
500
Re: Source to find 5 speed gearbox

bram_r - 2/11/2013 12:30 AM

Thanks!

The 711.110 and 711.112 are a bit more common here and can be found in good condition.
So buying a 711.110/112 and a 711.113 and combining these can make a 711.1167 with the low 1st and overdrive 5.

gr. Bram


you cant do that. notice i did not say that 5th gear needs to be replaced.
input and counter shafts basically regeared everything.
#211274 - in reply to #211243
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Posted 2/12/2013 6:51 AM
bram_r
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Date registered: Apr 2007
Location: the Netherlands
Vehicle(s): 1984 MB 280GE, 1982 MB 300GD, 1986 Subaru XT 4WD
Posts: 1659
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Re: Source to find 5 speed gearbox

Thanks again.
I'll source a 711.110/112 now and start working on it.
First I'll check the manuals to see if there are any real difficulties or special tools to be expected.
If I don't see any of these show stoppers, I'll open them up and see what can all be swapped.

gr. Bram
#211281 - in reply to #124309
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Posted 2/12/2013 8:21 AM
Loki Laufeyjarson



Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: 66°N, 19°W
Vehicle(s):
500
Re: Source to find 5 speed gearbox

Increased gear spectrum is a good thing.
But the idea of building a 5 speed gearbox with granny low 1st. gear and overdrive 5th. means that 4th. gear is 1/1 and there must be a tremendous gap in the gearing from 1/6,17 to 1/1.

Both gearboxes have 6X gear spectrum that is better than most other gearboxes from MB. The overdrive gearbox suits small tires and the granny gearbox is ideal for larger tires. KISS
#211283 - in reply to #211281
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Posted 2/12/2013 12:35 PM
autonovice
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Date registered: Dec 2006
Location: New York City
Vehicle(s): '05 G55K, '92 350GDT
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Re: Source to find 5 speed gearbox

Loki Laufeyjarson - 2/12/2013 5:21 AM

Increased gear spectrum is a good thing.
But the idea of building a 5 speed gearbox with granny low 1st. gear and overdrive 5th. means that 4th. gear is 1/1 and there must be a tremendous gap in the gearing from 1/6,17 to 1/1.

Both gearboxes have 6X gear spectrum that is better than most other gearboxes from MB. The overdrive gearbox suits small tires and the granny gearbox is ideal for larger tires. KISS :ahhh:


That is what 711.660 and 711.680 or 685 is for.
#211292 - in reply to #211283
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Posted 2/12/2013 1:15 PM
bram_r
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Date registered: Apr 2007
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Vehicle(s): 1984 MB 280GE, 1982 MB 300GD, 1986 Subaru XT 4WD
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Re: Source to find 5 speed gearbox

Loki Laufeyjarson - 2/12/2013 2:21 PM

Increased gear spectrum is a good thing.
But the idea of building a 5 speed gearbox with granny low 1st. gear and overdrive 5th. means that 4th. gear is 1/1 and there must be a tremendous gap in the gearing from 1/6,17 to 1/1.

Both gearboxes have 6X gear spectrum that is better than most other gearboxes from MB. The overdrive gearbox suits small tires and the granny gearbox is ideal for larger tires. KISS :ahhh:


I know this and yes, I mentioned this concern to the people interested.
Because the tranny will sit behind a om603a it is decided enough power is available for 'bridging' the gear gaps...
Also, the sprinter tranny option is discussed, but the iron box is preferred because of knowledge and parts availability.

autonovice - 2/12/2013 2:00 AM

bram_r - 2/11/2013 12:30 AM

Thanks!

The 711.110 and 711.112 are a bit more common here and can be found in good condition.
So buying a 711.110/112 and a 711.113 and combining these can make a 711.1167 with the low 1st and overdrive 5.

gr. Bram


you cant do that. notice i did not say that 5th gear needs to be replaced.
input and counter shafts basically regeared everything.


Just to be clear on this, is or isn't is possible to include the low 1st and overdrive 5 in one iron box 5 speed gearbox?
Your answer confuses me a bit.

gr. Bram

Edited by bram_r 2/12/2013 1:18 PM
#211293 - in reply to #211283
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Posted 2/12/2013 1:37 PM
autonovice
Elite Veteran


Date registered: Dec 2006
Location: New York City
Vehicle(s): '05 G55K, '92 350GDT
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Re: Source to find 5 speed gearbox

correction -- input shaft, 3rd & 5th gears, counter shaft and constant gear are the different between the 2 boxes. I cannot tell if it is or not possible from looking at EPC only. But I would think so.
#211295 - in reply to #124309
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Posted 2/12/2013 2:52 PM
bram_r
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Date registered: Apr 2007
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Vehicle(s): 1984 MB 280GE, 1982 MB 300GD, 1986 Subaru XT 4WD
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Re: Source to find 5 speed gearbox

Aha, well I will find out soon enough and document my findings

gr. Bram
#211297 - in reply to #124309
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Posted 3/3/2013 6:49 PM
bram_r
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Date registered: Apr 2007
Location: the Netherlands
Vehicle(s): 1984 MB 280GE, 1982 MB 300GD, 1986 Subaru XT 4WD
Posts: 1659
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RE: Source to find 5 speed gearbox

Well, started to take a 711.110 tranny apart, but something is holding the 'tail' section (holding 5th and reverse gear) from sliding off the main housing.

I don't have a iron box 5 speed manual available (already contacted Harald for availability), but looking at the G1/18 4 speed tranny manual, I imagined it couldn't be that much different.
Well, aparently it is, since after getting approx. a 5mm gap, something is holding it from sliding off completely. Didn't want to use big force without some good documentation, and it also was supper time
Any experience here getting such an iron box tranny apart?


gr. Bram



Edited by bram_r 3/3/2013 6:51 PM




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#211860 - in reply to #124309
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Posted 3/8/2013 3:47 PM
hipine



Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
5000
RE: Source to find 5 speed gearbox

bram_r - 3/3/2013 4:49 PM

Well, started to take a 711.110 tranny apart, but something is holding the 'tail' section (holding 5th and reverse gear) from sliding off the main housing.



My guess is something to do with the shifter mechanism that travels into the rear housing to do the R/1 shift. But just a guess. I'll try and dig up my manual and have a look if I can remember tonight.

-Dave G.
#211985 - in reply to #211860
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Posted 3/9/2013 11:57 AM
hipine



Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
5000
RE: Source to find 5 speed gearbox

Your picture helps a lot. See the 4 holes in top of the housing, and the big hole for the trans mount to the vehicle? The WIS uses a puller with arms that are bolted to those two locations (bottom surface of trans mount flange) and a cross bar between them with a fine pitch threaded bolt that bears on the end of the output shaft to pull the housing off the shaft. This implies to me that there's a press fit of something involved in there somewhere and that keeping the forces straight and parallel with the shaft will be a good idea. Yes, definitely a press fit of the ball bearing for the tail shaft support. The manual states the inner race of the bearing should be heated with warm air when attempting to re-fit the housing over the shaft.

The puller arms (and a number of others used in this manual) are a "460" part number! Even though this manual is for 30x, 60x, 61x vans. Not sure that means anything, but it was entertaining to me anyway. This comment is also included:

IMPORTANT:
Ensure that the reverse gear shaft remains in the transmission housing (visible when selector cover removed), otherwise the taper roller bearing of the countershaft may be damaged beyond repair. Release the tensions in the transmission cover with blows from a hammer if necessary.

Puller arms: 460 589 01 33 00
Crossbar of Puller 000 589 65 33 00

Hey Bram, didn't you buy some military service tool boxes one time? I wonder if these puller parts are in one of those.

Good luck!

-Dave G.

PS - the "transmission housing" where the RGS should remain in the Important note refers to the main casting of the transmission. The part you're removing is called the "rear cover"

PPS - The number of strange special tools (mainly crazy LONG jawed pullers for removing gears from shafts and equally long drivers for reinstalling them) and close tolerance dimensions to be verified in servicing this transmission would be enough to put me off from going in there in all but the most pressing of circumstances (known problems with the box). And I'd definitely NOT recommend it unless you have the WIS. PM me if you like.

Edited by hipine 3/9/2013 12:06 PM
#211998 - in reply to #211860
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Posted 5/4/2013 3:42 PM
bram_r
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Date registered: Apr 2007
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Vehicle(s): 1984 MB 280GE, 1982 MB 300GD, 1986 Subaru XT 4WD
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RE: Source to find 5 speed gearbox

Well today I spent some time disassembling the 711.110 gearbox and see what options we have regarding changing gears between the 711.110 and 711.113.

Step one was to see how to get the tranny apart.
For this we made some custom jaws for the puller. Thanks a million to Dave who was willing to scan his tranny manual!

See pics for the puller set up.
With this removed, we got the reverse and 1st gear visible.

One of the most viable options now is to change the gearing in such that we keep the first, second and third gear of the 711.110, then 4th gear 1:1 and 5 the gear overdrive out of the 711.113.
But I first have to discuss this.
As Dave mentions, they're quite a bit of special tools and pullers involved, not a simple task it will be! Also need to remove a gear that's probably pressed or heat shrinked on to the counter-shaft...

May update somewhere soon...

Bram





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#213652 - in reply to #124309
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Posted 5/10/2013 2:29 PM
bram_r
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Date registered: Apr 2007
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Vehicle(s): 1984 MB 280GE, 1982 MB 300GD, 1986 Subaru XT 4WD
Posts: 1659
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RE: Source to find 5 speed gearbox

There we go, all shafts and gears removed...empty casing now. Took some special tools and some effort, but now see if we can remove and swap gears...

Bram





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#213831 - in reply to #124309
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Posted 5/10/2013 11:56 PM
hipine



Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
5000
RE: Source to find 5 speed gearbox

bram_r - 5/4/2013 1:42 PM

...One of the most viable options now is to change the gearing in such that we keep the first, second and third gear of the 711.110, then 4th gear 1:1 and 5 the gear overdrive out of the 711.113.
But I first have to discuss this.....


Personally I think that would be too big a sacrifice in driveability for me. To make the jump from a 1.75:1 3rd straight to a 1:1 4th would literally leave a gear missing that I use quite a lot. I would have to rev to 3500+ and then finish the change at 2000 rpm and this change will happen right in the 60-70 kph area where I drive quite a lot.

Looking at the torque curve for the 617A here:
http://www.pointedthree.com/disc/forums/showthread.php?tid=6948&pos...
we see that the torque is dropping off fast after 3k rpm and before 2k. This means that any time the truck is under significant load the 3/4 shift with this box will always be a totally unforgiving exercise in shifting at EXACTLY the right point in time to avoid ending up at a point on the curve that's lower torque than where you topped out.

My roughly 150,000 km with the 617A & G1/18-5/4.7 confirm what the torque graph says. This motor really enjoys being between 2 and 3k rpm and while able outside that range, is really off it's game. If the truck is driven in conditions that enable one to stay away from the 3/4 shift, or the engine is re-tuned to modify the torque curve a little, it could work pretty well. But for me, with lots of mountain driving that stresses the motor hard all the time anyway, and not wanting to sacrifice longevity for power gains, this gearing swap wasn't in the cards.

If it's going to be doable at all though, that's the place to try it. Other places in the sequence are only worse, split-wise, not to mention impractical from a transmission construction point of view.

Best of luck to you Bram and nice work as usual.

-Dave G.
#213837 - in reply to #213652
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Posted 5/12/2013 4:52 PM
bram_r
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Date registered: Apr 2007
Location: the Netherlands
Vehicle(s): 1984 MB 280GE, 1982 MB 300GD, 1986 Subaru XT 4WD
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Re: Source to find 5 speed gearbox

Hi Dave,

This tranny won't be sitting behind my future om617a
I'm doing this work for someone in the States, I'm keeping him posted on the options we're having with this transmission.
The gearing 'gap' between 3 and 4 is the most convenient when looking how the gears are mounted on the countershaft. Also, keeping gear 1 - 3 together may help for doing all the off road work and driving around town, going to 4 and 5 on interstates etc.
The engine powering this tranny will probable be a souped up om603a.
Btw, we still have one hurdle to go. The actual gear changing can hopefully take place somewhere soon!

But anyway, I can rebuild these kind of tranny's now

Bram
#213875 - in reply to #124309
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Posted 5/12/2013 6:35 PM
frank_be
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Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Belgium
Vehicle(s): G350 Turbo
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RE: Source to find 5 speed gearbox

I believe I have the workshop manual somewhere here. It was a paper copy made from microfilm.

If I remember correctly it was never officially available in print.

I will try to find it one of these weeks...

#213878 - in reply to #124309
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Posted 5/12/2013 11:27 PM
hipine



Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
5000
RE: Source to find 5 speed gearbox

Nice to hear from you Frank! I hope all is well with you.

-Dave G.
#213883 - in reply to #213878
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Posted 5/16/2013 4:34 AM
bram_r
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Re: Source to find 5 speed gearbox

Another tranny I'm rebuilding right now, needs some new paint.
Would anybody now what (RAL) color MB painted the tranny's in green (as seen on my post op 28/6/2008)?
Just looking for a flat green industrial paint color, maybe someone got this kind of info.

gr. Bram
#213989 - in reply to #213837
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Posted 5/30/2013 7:11 PM
bram_r
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Date registered: Apr 2007
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RE: Source to find 5 speed gearbox

Well, I've decided on RAL 6011, as some call it, pea-soup-green, but it worked out nice.
I think RAL 6011 is the original color on these tranny's.
Gave a first layer of industrial primer, then this RAL 6011 industrial green. As used for painting machines.

See pics for before/after result:

Bram

Edited by bram_r 5/30/2013 7:18 PM




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#214320 - in reply to #124309
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Posted 5/30/2013 7:14 PM
bram_r
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RE: Source to find 5 speed gearbox

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Edited by bram_r 5/30/2013 7:17 PM
#214321 - in reply to #214320
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Posted 6/14/2013 9:44 PM
bram_r
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Re: Source to find 5 speed gearbox

With the correct set up and tools and a 10 ton press, the final gear of the countershaft is removed.
This takes out the 4th gear of the 711.110 and will be replaced by the 5th gear of the 711.113 if all goes well.
Basicly, now it's time to order a few new bearings, disassemble the 711.113 just as the 711.110 and combine the two of them

In about two weeks hoping to end this feasability study

Bram
#214848 - in reply to #124309
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