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roughneck
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: UK, Germany & USA
Vehicle(s): 270 cdi.300 GD 300 GE.lwb 300 GE.swb. Disco 2
Posts: 4398
| PTO (Power take off)
Now that I have a spare T box I want to add a pto to drive a hydraulic winch, any one have a list of parts required.
Edited by roughneck 11/1/2008 4:16 PM
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DesertStar
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA
Vehicle(s): 85-280GE/95-G320/08-G500
Posts: 2156
| RE: PTO (Power take off)
Bill, are you asking for an EPC photo of the layout and part numbers or a "layman's" synopsis of what is needed ? Mike
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roughneck
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: UK, Germany & USA
Vehicle(s): 270 cdi.300 GD 300 GE.lwb 300 GE.swb. Disco 2
Posts: 4398
| RE: PTO (Power take off)
Dave.
What I would like is a EPC parts list and the experience of any one that has done it. |
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Inkblotz
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Georgia
Vehicle(s): 90 300GD "Thundering Turtle II", w/ 603A turbo
Posts: 3186
| Re: PTO (Power take off)
Roughneck
I remembered this PTO discussion on BW back in 05: http://www.benzworld.org/forums/g-class/1205247-p-t-o-question.html
Scroll down the diagrams are there.
Mark |
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bram_r
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2007
Location: the Netherlands
Vehicle(s): 1984 MB 280GE, 1982 MB 300GD, 1986 Subaru XT 4WD
Posts: 1659
| RE: PTO (Power take off)
roughneck - 11/1/2008 10:15 PM
Now that I have a spare T box I want to add a pto to drive a hydraulic winch, any one have a list of parts required.
For standard installation, winches like MileMarker use the steering pump for hydraulic power. Why do you want to go PTO way?
Bram |
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AlanMcR
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, CA, Los Altos
Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL
Posts: 3500
| RE: PTO (Power take off)
bram_r - 11/1/2008 6:03 PM roughneck - 11/1/2008 10:15 PM Now that I have a spare T box I want to add a pto to drive a hydraulic winch, any one have a list of parts required. For standard installation, winches like MileMarker use the steering pump for hydraulic power. Why do you want to go PTO way? Bram Somewhere on P3 I posted a drawing of how to tap into the MB PS pump to get much higher performance for the winch. The steering flow is purposely limited in it's pressure and flow to provide an even steering feel. For the winch you want raw power.
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roughneck
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: UK, Germany & USA
Vehicle(s): 270 cdi.300 GD 300 GE.lwb 300 GE.swb. Disco 2
Posts: 4398
| RE: PTO (Power take off)
bram_r - 11/2/2008 2:03 AM
roughneck - 11/1/2008 10:15 PM
Now that I have a spare T box I want to add a pto to drive a hydraulic winch, any one have a list of parts required.
For standard installation, winches like MileMarker use the steering pump for hydraulic power. Why do you want to go PTO way?
Bram
The power steering pump method invairiably fails thru overheating fluid, pto enables a larger capacity draulic tank to aid cooling and pto speeds varied thru engine and gear ratios, when not in use pto is disengaged. also I want the wich to be demountable.
Edited by roughneck 11/2/2008 3:29 AM
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bram_r
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2007
Location: the Netherlands
Vehicle(s): 1984 MB 280GE, 1982 MB 300GD, 1986 Subaru XT 4WD
Posts: 1659
| RE: PTO (Power take off)
roughneck - 11/2/2008 9:19 AM
bram_r - 11/2/2008 2:03 AM
roughneck - 11/1/2008 10:15 PM
Now that I have a spare T box I want to add a pto to drive a hydraulic winch, any one have a list of parts required.
For standard installation, winches like MileMarker use the steering pump for hydraulic power. Why do you want to go PTO way?
Bram
The power steering pump method invairiably fails thru overheating fluid, pto enables a larger capacity draulic tank to aid cooling and pto speeds varied thru engine and gear ratios, when not in use pto is disengaged.
thanks for this info. PTO would also be my first choice for the reasons you mention, but since these PTO boxes are scarce and expensive, I wondered if the power steering pump would do the job for normal winch jobs.
Would a steering pump powered hydraulic winch still be preferable over an electronic winch? Especially with Alan's mentioned mods?
Bram |
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roughneck
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: UK, Germany & USA
Vehicle(s): 270 cdi.300 GD 300 GE.lwb 300 GE.swb. Disco 2
Posts: 4398
| RE: PTO (Power take off)
I want to use the hydraulics for other tools as well as winch, ie snow plough / salt grit spreader. |
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kashi123
Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: UK, Netherlands
Vehicle(s): Mercedes 300GD OM606A Pickup; Mercedes 300GD
Posts: 168
| Re: PTO (Power take off)
The power steering pump method invairiably fails thru overheating fluid, pto enables a larger capacity draulic tank to aid cooling and pto speeds varied thru engine and gear ratios, when not in use pto is disengaged. also I want the wich to be demountable.
Interesting, I power my Milemarker through a stand alone steering pump fitted to the aircon compressor slot. Have been using it for the last two years and no sign of it failing through overheating fluid, even after hours of winching
I suppose IF that worries you, a larger capacity fluid tank could be installed, doesn't need to be PTO for that.
I do think the option of being able to vary the gearratio's is very nice and ofcourse you can fit a far bigger pump so get a quicker winch. Having said that, mine is plenty fast enough for what I do and hasn't run out of grunt yet!
.
thanks for this info. PTO would also be my first choice for the reasons you mention, but since these PTO boxes are scarce and expensive, I wondered if the power steering pump would do the job for normal winch jobs
Yes it is, no worries
Would a steering pump powered hydraulic winch still be preferable over an electronic winch?
That is a whole debate in itself, both have pros and cons depending on what usage you are envisageing.
For me, I needed something that could pull my heavy G out when up to the sills in mud and could do that all day. Hydraulic was the answer for me, I didn't need speed so went with the steeringpump option. But that was a personal choice.
for others electric might be a better choice.
Horses for courses!
Best regards
Richard
Edit: just saw that you want to power other tools hydraulically, the you will probably need the flow that a PTO powered pump can deliver. My mistake
Edited by kashi123 11/2/2008 5:00 AM
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roughneck
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: UK, Germany & USA
Vehicle(s): 270 cdi.300 GD 300 GE.lwb 300 GE.swb. Disco 2
Posts: 4398
| RE: PTO (Power take off)
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bram_r
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2007
Location: the Netherlands
Vehicle(s): 1984 MB 280GE, 1982 MB 300GD, 1986 Subaru XT 4WD
Posts: 1659
| RE: PTO (Power take off)
roughneck - 11/2/2008 10:49 AM
I want to use the hydraulics for other tools as well as winch, ie snow plough / salt grit spreader.
keep us updated on required and found parts, costs and installation details.
Good luck with it.
Bram |
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hipine
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
| RE: PTO (Power take off)
Just my opinion, but I feel that being in the drive line might be a DIS-advantage of the PTO driven pump. Since it's on the transfer case, that means that you either have the transfer case in neutral with NO drive to the wheels, or else your hydraulic pump is turning at a speed that's related to your wheel speed. That just seems like too great a limitation to me for most of the accessories I'd think about running hydraulically. It would be most interesting to me to see what kind of accessories were MEANT by MB to be driven by the transfer box PTO. Most of the PTO options I've heard of for utility vehicles were meant to be driven by the PTO with the vehicle stationary. But I haven't ever seen anything with regard to what MB proposed to be operated by the PTO. I can't imagine plowing snow with a PTO pump. Only being able to move the plow when the wheels are moving or the t-case has been shifted into neutral, immobilizing the vehicle? Sounds utterly impractical to me. If you need consistent hydraulic power on demand, and an engine driven pump won't meet your requirements, an electric motor driven pump is the only way to go. Just my thoughts. -Dave G. |
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Fernando BR
Date registered: Jan 2007
Location: Brasil
Vehicle(s): G500/05 300GE/91 300GD/80
| Re: PTO (Power take off)
It works like Dave said in my syster Unimog. ( front and rear PTOs) - Other fact is the mechanic winch is big and weigth more than electrical. Problems in attack angle ans suspension. Its very wellcome in farm works when you have pumps, you need energy , etc..etc...in remote areas.
In this website you can see original MB mechanical winches for ptos.
http://classicunimogs.com/winch_specs.html
Edited by Fernando BR 11/2/2008 8:59 PM
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roughneck
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: UK, Germany & USA
Vehicle(s): 270 cdi.300 GD 300 GE.lwb 300 GE.swb. Disco 2
Posts: 4398
| RE: PTO (Power take off)
First replace snow plough with snow blower, my mistake. even so the mechanism needs to be raised / lowered that wont take much hydraulic, the blower will be hydr driven and that will be a constant speed and require a high flow rate, likewise the spreader. In both instances they will be required to operate when the vehicle is moving. |
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hipine
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
| RE: PTO (Power take off)
roughneck - 11/3/2008 2:16 AM First replace snow plough with snow blower, my mistake. even so the mechanism needs to be raised / lowered that wont take much hydraulic, the blower will be hydr driven and that will be a constant speed and require a high flow rate, likewise the spreader. In both instances they will be required to operate when the vehicle is moving. Right, but with the PTO pump, the oil volume flowing (and thus speed of the blower or spreader) will be dependent on road speed because shafts and gears connect the wheels to the PTO. The only way I see around that is to use a hydraulic pump with gobs of overkill and shunt most of the flow (and all the variability of same) back to tank. Oh well, have fun putting it together and do send us some action shots when it's working! -Dave G. |
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bram_r
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2007
Location: the Netherlands
Vehicle(s): 1984 MB 280GE, 1982 MB 300GD, 1986 Subaru XT 4WD
Posts: 1659
| Re: PTO (Power take off)
points mentioned above is why agricultural tractors have so many shift options.
You're taking power from the engine both to drive the tractor, but also power some tool. Take to much power from the engine for the tool, and your engine will stall, meaning you have to select another gear for the PTO.
On the latest Vario tractors, the forward speed is controlled by computer, i.e. power for PTO is given priority, and forward speed is regulated on how much the engine can output without stalling.
For this G application, you can think of some hydraulic valve block to limit flow from your hydraulic pump (with variable displacement pump). Put on a too large pump without flow regulation and you will stall the engine (same as trying to drive off in top gear).
Bram |
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G wizz
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Uk
Vehicle(s): Dont own a G anymore, Too expensive!!!!
Posts: 686
| Re: PTO (Power take off)
had the pto fitted to my 280 running hydraulic milemarker, used the winch whilst running auto in first and second gear to allow drive assist, no problem whatsoever. easy job to do and the parts are around £1200
./Users/ianwatson/Desktop/Picture clipping 3.pictClipping
Edited by G wizz 11/3/2008 2:20 PM
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roughneck
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: UK, Germany & USA
Vehicle(s): 270 cdi.300 GD 300 GE.lwb 300 GE.swb. Disco 2
Posts: 4398
| RE: PTO (Power take off)
Of course I had forgotten you had done that, can you email me the parts list and procedures, Ta Ian.  |
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hipine
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
| Re: PTO (Power take off)
G wizz - 11/3/2008 12:17 PM had the pto fitted to my 280 running hydraulic milemarker, used the winch whilst running auto in first and second gear to allow drive assist, no problem whatsoever. easy job to do and the parts are around £1200 ./Users/ianwatson/Desktop/Picture clipping 3.pictClipping I'm thinking the PTO can only run at some speed directly proportional to wheel speed, unless the t-case is put into neutral in which case you have full freedom of PTO speed, but no drive to the wheels. Is that the case Ian, or have I missed the boat? -Dave G. |
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