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| ewalberg Expert Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: Past: San Francisco. Present: Germany Vehicle(s): 2000 g500 Posts: 1887  | panhard and radius arm bushing replacement. how to? So a few thousand miles ago i was getting a steering wobble that wouldn't go away despite fresh steering damper and good tire balance and minimal slop in my steering linkages. I put new shocks on my front end and it was well fixed... now it's back... with my 33's it's worst around 60, and unlike a tire balance issue or a steering damper problem, driving faster actually makes it better... and sometimes it does't present itself at any speed. When driving faster helps, i suspect that the swinging weight of balanced tires stabilizes things... the faster your going, the more energy they have to counter act anything else trying to move them. So anyway, i think i'm going to replace my panhard and trailing arm bushings... but how? How much torque on the different bolts? I've already read that getting the radius arm bushings out can be tricky, but I also want to say i recall there's a trick for how to do it with minimal effort otherwise... where you can actually leave the car sitting on the ground... but i've spent an hour or so searching without any luck... i've got proper jack stands and a good floor jack. Any help would be greatly appreciated. | ||
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| ogrenutz Elite Veteran Date registered: Apr 2007 Location: Peoples Republic of Virginia Vehicle(s): '81 300 GD Cabrio Posts: 821  | RE: panhard and radius arm bushing replacement. how to? You can leave the G on the ground. The radius arm will drop right off of the axle housing once you get it started with a little bit of prying. On my 460, the housing rotated a degree or two when I pulled the arms. When I put them back on, it didn't require much effort with a 24" pipe wrench to rotate the housing back to get all of the bolt holes to line back up. I didn't have a press, so I took both arms to a shop close by and they pressed the bushings for me. I did have to cut the upper bolts on each side to remove the arm. Somehow, they were installed where you couldn't back them out all of the way because the bolt heads would bottom against the shock mount (front) before they cleared the radius arm brackets. I still haven't figured out how they got those bolts in there in the first place. Anyway, I didn't spend a lot of time worrying about it, they met the business end of my sawzall quickly. In my experience, the coil suspension allows just a little lateral movement in all directions so that you can pry things back into alignment easily. Not very scientific, I know, but G is stout enough to handle a little brute force LOL. I think the torque specs are on here because I requested them in a post about a year ago. I'll try to find them. Edited by ogrenutz 2/9/2009 7:57 AM | ||
| #143250 - in reply to #143239 |
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| DUTCH Administrator Doppelgänger Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: US, GA, Atlanta Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter Posts: 9963  | RE: panhard and radius arm bushing replacement. how to? These should give you what you need to know. Attachments ----------------  2.1 - Removal and installation of front torsion bar stabilizer Types 461, 463.pdf (57KB - 211 downloads) 3.1 - Change rubber mount on trailing arm_torsion bar Types 461, 463.pdf (47KB - 229 downloads) Remove_install trailing arm.pdf (55KB - 134 downloads) Stabilizer bars - Check for tight seating, retighten.pdf (27KB - 143 downloads) Transverse and longitudinal control arm of front axle - tighten nuts and bolt.pdf (27KB - 138 downloads) | ||
| #143259 - in reply to #143239 |
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| MiN Extreme Veteran Date registered: May 2006 Location: Alpujarras, Spain Vehicle(s): No cars, at all. Posts: 555 | Re: panhard and radius arm bushing replacement. how to? I've done this job recently. I didn't have to cut the bolts holding the trailing arms adjacent to the wheels but I had removed the stabiliser bar at the same time as I was renewing the bushings on that too. A little bit of judicious jacking in the right place and you can get the bolts out. I did replace them so that the nut end was in the tight spot - for easier removing next time around. Just be careful when you release the last nut holding on the trailing arms - they are damned heavy. I bought my self a small 15 ton bench press, which I'd been after for some time and it was very easy to press out the old bushings and press in the new ones. | ||
| #143262 - in reply to #143239 |
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| AlanMcR Expert Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: US, CA, Los Altos Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL Posts: 3500  | RE: panhard and radius arm bushing replacement. how to? Pressing the new bushings back in can be problematic. The shell of the bushing is really too thin and can crush as you push on it. The factory tool has a curve to it that cups the shell more gently than a flat press would. Sanding out the hole and using a bit of lube might ease installation too. | ||
| #143277 - in reply to #143239 |
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| 512bbi Expert Date registered: Jan 2007 Location: North western US and Europe Vehicle(s): 05G55kge,Range rover classic,clk55amg,ML 430 Posts: 1313 | RE: panhard and radius arm bushing replacement. how to? Eric I wonder if part of your problem is your tie rods. There should be no play. New bushings do not give you the new car feel for too long. Have you consider poly? Easier to install and they last. I got some from dessert-service.com I will be installing soon Mario | ||
| #143286 - in reply to #143239 |
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| ewalberg Expert Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: Past: San Francisco. Present: Germany Vehicle(s): 2000 g500 Posts: 1887 | Re: panhard and radius arm bushing replacement. how to? Thanks! Lots of good info! A couple more questions... Looking at the instruction dutch posted (thanks again) It shows that you need to remove the tie rod from the steering pitman arms... Alan, do you have a puller? i recall it's a bad idea to to use the fork style puller because it damages the boot. For the trailing arms, i assume this is only to be performed one side at a time? I'm can imagine the axle sliding out and the truck falling flat on it's on it's nose if you tried to do both trailing arms at once?... The (tranverse link) panhard rod can also be done with the truck sitting on lever ground? 512bbi... i checked my tie rods and they feel pretty tight actually... i'll probably check again... but what i write in the next paragraph makes me think they aren't the problem. The wierdest part is that the problem popped up again suddenly right after i replaced my front pads and rotors, and tightened down slightly on my right front bearing which had some play. (I'm certain i didn't overtighten the bearing becuase it's not getting hot... the knuckle will get hot right at the bearing if you overtighten)... i've overtightened it before when at 100k miles they were first installed and no wobbling then). The braking is good and smooth so i don't think the rotors could cause it. when performing the job, I did however have the axle jacked up by the trailing arm (at the axle) for almost a week which should put some awkward stress on the bushings when i think about it more... and that makes me think that may have been the cause of the fresh problem. Before this, there was no problem. I do see some signs of light separation of the rubber form the outer steel ring on the axle/trailing arm bushings... and considering vehicle tires are considered pretty compromised in performance after 10 years, i'm thinking my rubber bushings likely deserve refreshing as well after 10 years just by virtue of age. I am seriously considering the poly bushings, if for no other reason that it's likely easier to get them into the axle/trailing arm location, which sounds tough without some big tools... i don't like the idea of the truck getting noisier over bumps or losing a bunch of articulation. Otherwise i'm game. I like the desert stuff as a totally complete set... however, i wonder about how they use such big metal inner bushings, instead of Roughnecks solution which uses smaller more "normally" sized steel bushings... to me i wonder if the Desert stuff wont end up too harsh or too stiff for the fact that they have more or less intentionally reduced the amount of functioning poly because of the larger inner bushings. your thoughts? How long did it take for you to receive the stuff from Desert?... nearly $100 in shipping... hope it's quick... how soon will you be installing?... i'd LOVE to get your feedback first... are you installing everything in the kit? Panhard? stabilizer? Edited by ewalberg 2/9/2009 7:26 PM | ||
| #143324 - in reply to #143239 |
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| ogrenutz Elite Veteran Date registered: Apr 2007 Location: Peoples Republic of Virginia Vehicle(s): '81 300 GD Cabrio Posts: 821 | Re: panhard and radius arm bushing replacement. how to? ewalberg - 2/9/2009 7:19 PM Thanks! Lots of good info! A couple more questions... Looking at the instruction dutch posted (thanks again) It shows that you need to remove the tie rod from the steering pitman arms... Alan, do you have a puller? i recall it's a bad idea to to use the fork style puller because it damages the boot. For the trailing arms, i assume this is only to be performed one side at a time? I'm can imagine the axle sliding out and the truck falling flat on it's on it's nose if you tried to do both trailing arms at once?... The (tranverse link) panhard rod can also be done with the truck sitting on lever ground? 512bbi... i checked my tie rods and they feel pretty tight actually... i'll probably check again... but what i write in the next paragraph makes me think they aren't the problem. The wierdest part is that the problem popped up again suddenly right after i replaced my front pads and rotors, and tightened down slightly on my right front bearing which had some play. (I'm certain i didn't overtighten the bearing becuase it's not getting hot... the knuckle will get hot right at the bearing if you overtighten)... i've overtightened it before when at 100k miles they were first installed and no wobbling then). The braking is good and smooth so i don't think the rotors could cause it. when performing the job, I did however have the axle jacked up by the trailing arm (at the axle) for almost a week which should put some awkward stress on the bushings when i think about it more... and that makes me think that may have been the cause of the fresh problem. Before this, there was no problem. I do see some signs of light separation of the rubber form the outer steel ring on the axle/trailing arm bushings... and considering vehicle tires are considered pretty compromised in performance after 10 years, i'm thinking my rubber bushings likely deserve refreshing as well after 10 years just by virtue of age. I am seriously considering the poly bushings, if for no other reason that it's likely easier to get them into the axle/trailing arm location, which sounds tough without some big tools... i don't like the idea of the truck getting noisier over bumps or losing a bunch of articulation. Otherwise i'm game. I like the desert stuff as a totally complete set... however, i wonder about how they use such big metal inner bushings, instead of Roughnecks solution which uses smaller more "normally" sized steel bushings... to me i wonder if the Desert stuff wont end up too harsh or too stiff for the fact that they have more or less intentionally reduced the amount of functioning poly because of the larger inner bushings. your thoughts? How long did it take for you to receive the stuff from Desert?... nearly $100 in shipping... hope it's quick... how soon will you be installing?... i'd LOVE to get your feedback first... are you installing everything in the kit? Panhard? stabilizer? If you're on level ground, you can pull both ok. The shocks and drive shaft will keep everything in check. As for the tie rod, I just removed the cotter pins and castle nuts and either pulled it out or just swung it to one side, I don't remember. | ||
| #143329 - in reply to #143324 |
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| AlanMcR Expert Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: US, CA, Los Altos Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL Posts: 3500 | Re: panhard and radius arm bushing replacement. how to? ewalberg - 2/9/2009 4:19 PM Alan, do you have a puller? i recall it's a bad idea to to use the fork style puller because it damages the boot. Yes, I have a puller for the tie rods. It is a slightly modified tie rod puller from Harbor Freight. Not the factory tool, but it works. My comments on the press damaging the bearing shell were related to the panhard rod bushings. The radius arms bushing are much better built. I have a two spare bushings for the back arms (if you haven't ordered yours yet). | ||
| #143331 - in reply to #143324 |
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| 512bbi Expert Date registered: Jan 2007 Location: North western US and Europe Vehicle(s): 05G55kge,Range rover classic,clk55amg,ML 430 Posts: 1313 | Re: panhard and radius arm bushing replacement. how to? ewalberg - 2/9/2009 5:19 PM Thanks! Lots of good info! A couple more questions... Looking at the instruction dutch posted (thanks again) It shows that you need to remove the tie rod from the steering pitman arms... Alan, do you have a puller? i recall it's a bad idea to to use the fork style puller because it damages the boot. For the trailing arms, i assume this is only to be performed one side at a time? I'm can imagine the axle sliding out and the truck falling flat on it's on it's nose if you tried to do both trailing arms at once?... The (tranverse link) panhard rod can also be done with the truck sitting on lever ground? 512bbi... i checked my tie rods and they feel pretty tight actually... i'll probably check again... but what i write in the next paragraph makes me think they aren't the problem. The wierdest part is that the problem popped up again suddenly right after i replaced my front pads and rotors, and tightened down slightly on my right front bearing which had some play. (I'm certain i didn't overtighten the bearing becuase it's not getting hot... the knuckle will get hot right at the bearing if you overtighten)... i've overtightened it before when at 100k miles they were first installed and no wobbling then). The braking is good and smooth so i don't think the rotors could cause it. when performing the job, I did however have the axle jacked up by the trailing arm (at the axle) for almost a week which should put some awkward stress on the bushings when i think about it more... and that makes me think that may have been the cause of the fresh problem. Before this, there was no problem. I do see some signs of light separation of the rubber form the outer steel ring on the axle/trailing arm bushings... and considering vehicle tires are considered pretty compromised in performance after 10 years, i'm thinking my rubber bushings likely deserve refreshing as well after 10 years just by virtue of age. I am seriously considering the poly bushings, if for no other reason that it's likely easier to get them into the axle/trailing arm location, which sounds tough without some big tools... i don't like the idea of the truck getting noisier over bumps or losing a bunch of articulation. Otherwise i'm game. I like the desert stuff as a totally complete set... however, i wonder about how they use such big metal inner bushings, instead of Roughnecks solution which uses smaller more "normally" sized steel bushings... to me i wonder if the Desert stuff wont end up too harsh or too stiff for the fact that they have more or less intentionally reduced the amount of functioning poly because of the larger inner bushings. your thoughts? How long did it take for you to receive the stuff from Desert?... nearly $100 in shipping... hope it's quick... how soon will you be installing?... i'd LOVE to get your feedback first... are you installing everything in the kit? Panhard? stabilizer? Eric I got the poly once in about ten days and another time almost two weeks . The reason I had them ordered twice was for testing the first shipment which was the small trailing arm ones only. Then I ordered a complete set. I have done this with my Rover many years ago and I installed the red (hard ones) so advertised and I discovered comparing with a friend that had some blue softer ones that the feel of the truck has been awesome with the hard ones and no effect on articulation whatsoever and the soft ones made his truck drive like he had old bushings. My rover has been in a lot of dirt with these bushings and no issues for almost 100k on them. I like the big ones on the trailing arms to have the big metal part and less bushing to flex...if you look at the stock ones they have an additional ring in there to minimize flex and keep them from braking......especially when the lockers are in... Dai on another post had a big improvement in his feel of the truck when he installed the offset bushings for caster gain and if you look at his there is hardly any poly between the inner ring and the outer since the inner ring has to be off set. The way the axles operate on the G I believe most of the flex goes to the little ones by the frame when the straight part of the rod of the trailing arm is squeezing them from the inside when the axles go through a complete flex of the suspension When you take your old ones out you will see how deformed they are there where the hole will be oval . If you see daylight like you described you definitely have too much loose movement forward backwards and that will make your steering characteristics very bad especially on ruts...etc I also believe very strongly that pan hard rod with the strongest bushings helps a ton. The only effect on articulation will be at the front with the sway arm bushings but it will be small versus rubber and I think we will experience less body roll on the street. It should be more of a problem for me since my sway bar is a little thicker and it effects articulation already...the rest I will be doing the whole set. I do not believe the poly will give any change in harshness of the ride in this design of chassis ...it is the same with the rovers and I had none there...real stiff springs and shocks more than anything else should dictate comfort besides tires...is my opinion I will be back home at the end of next week and I will be installing them a few days after I get there. You mentioned you changed front schocks and that helped a little. You mind elaborating on that and were they the heavy konis? If my testing proves right we will never do bushings again...I found the poly to be a lot more more flexible in cold temperatures than the stock rubber which is pure junk when really cold. Mario | ||
| #143418 - in reply to #143324 |
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| 4x4abc Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico Vehicle(s): 02 G500 | Re: panhard and radius arm bushing replacement. how to? ewalberg - 2/9/2009 4:19 AM The wierdest part is that the problem popped up again suddenly right after i replaced my front pads and rotors, and tightened down slightly on my right front bearing which had some play. Erik, I just remember a tech article about mounting the rotors - the whole thing was more brake pulsating related, but when it is possible to get a wobble into the rotor by not following their service advice, then it could also cause the vibration you describe. Especially since you pointed out that it occurred right after a rotor change. http://www.rubicon-trail.com/public/Brake-Pulsation.pdf Edited by 4x4abc 2/10/2009 10:16 PM | ||
| #143420 - in reply to #143324 |
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| ewalberg Expert Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: Past: San Francisco. Present: Germany Vehicle(s): 2000 g500 Posts: 1887 | Re: panhard and radius arm bushing replacement. how to? Yeah, basically both dutch and i had the same problem... he beat me to it in a couple ways... he at around 80k miles and me at around 125k miles both had a steering wheel wobble (like a steering damper going bad) that wasn't fixed by a proper tire balance and a new steering damper... well and a proper alignment as well. Changing the front shocks solved the problem in both cases. He got the blue plastic bootied yellow bilsteins that are analogous to the OEM shocks. Vlad and Eurotruck sell them. I was in a hurry and wanted to make sure i got the same ride as stock (and i did not have confirmation that they were identical at the time of purchase) so i bought the OEM's at a notable primium... later on Vlad mentioned that the rears (of the Yellow/Blue option are the only ones valved differently... a little softer, but i think somewhere on the internet noticed there is a heavier duty version for the rear)... i may have posted about it. I didn't go for any other option becuase i just wanted 100% certainty that i could just install and go and wasn't in the mood to play with damping setting or deal with a different feel despite it being something i would ordinarily "want" to play with. Fortunately or otherwise, I can't see any light through my bushings... but i am only starting to see a tiny bit of separation between the outer ring and the rubber... I probably wont change out all the stuff at once for shear laziness... the front panhard rod and trailing arms are going to be first... the rest will follow "some day"... maybe i'll get my new rear shocks and do the whole rear end bushings at once so i can better "feel" where the money went than doing it piece by piece. I am curious to try and remove the axle/radius arm bushings without damaging them so i can see if leaving the right trailing arm on a jack stand for a week is what screwed up the bushing and caused the wobble... it's making a whole lot of sense considering what you saw with permanent deformation of the bushing... ordinarily they may constantly stressed to some degree when turning or articulation, but they don't bear the weight of the truck... it used to bother me when the car shop did it for 45 minutes (for this reason)... not sure why i let my self compromise to the same bad judgement... might not be letting them do it any more (regardless of bushing choice)... Supposedly the Sachs HD are also stiffer than the bilsteins and longer lasting... they were historically heavier than the stock shocks but i think the g500 shocks are stiffer than the older 460 shocks... (whether it's for shocks that need replacing or they just used to suspend them softer, i don't know) i think my shocks model have been used on G's since 98 to current perhaps.... at least though 2005 g500 i think... earlier? i don't know. G55 shocks are stiffer, (i believe with the 03-04 part numbers being the stiffest everl... softer in 2005 and later, but still stiffer than g500?). obviously, i don't know if the Koni's are as stiff as what you have. W5yK seems to be going through the shocks at the fastest rate on the board... unless you are... but he's had them totally fail becuase he's doing hundreds of miles on washboard. | ||
| #143422 - in reply to #143418 |
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| ewalberg Expert Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: Past: San Francisco. Present: Germany Vehicle(s): 2000 g500 Posts: 1887 | Re: panhard and radius arm bushing replacement. how to? Quick question, is the rubber in the panhard bushings really only like .05" thick?.... a little over a millimetet?... or is the outside metal housing a thin shell that's shaped inward? Side observation, the inside of the steel inner sleeve is hollowed out from the inside... i have no idea why? Also, i think i definitely found the culprit for my steering wobble, both left and right side trailing arm bushings that attach to the axle... the ones nearest the driver, were ripped and it is pretty easy to manipulate the inner sleeve... which it should be. The further forward bushings were in better shape.I used an inner race from my wheel bearing job to knock the bushings out of the trailing arms. I've been using a fair amount of AeroKroil,... some stuff that helps loosen bolts. It's making the job a lot easier i suspect. I've got 130k miles on the truck. One pit tip, the reality is the the frame to trailing arm bushings are constantly stressed downward... as if you've added a 3 inch lift... which i haven't, and the original bushings show it... in fact it looks like they were tightened up without lining things up better. you have to jack up the axle at the trailing arm at the low hanging spot (just behind the front bushing) to get the trailing arm to enter the frame mount straight in... at rest it point up pretty bad, and if you try and jack it anywhere else it either pushes up or down to strongly to assembly. Mario, i agree it shouldn't affect the tilt at all... although i do plan to drive around the block and lean it a little left and right before full tightening the axle/trailing arm bolts to get them to settle properly before cranking down on it, and in this way i think it may affect the tilt. At the axle interface the poly is tight going in and the metal center are also tight going into the poly so it should be nice and snug in there. SO far everything has been nice and tight accept the little round steering stabilizer bits. Too loose if you ask me. I'm going to e-mail him about it. i have them in the ends of the stabilizer, but i'm opting not to put them at the upper linkage to the stabilizer because removing them later if my thoughts are correct that they're too lose... will be a pain in the buttt... at least on the right side where my exhaust routes through. I will crank down on the trailing arm to frame bolts while i have the trailing arm jacked to get everything lined up... the bolt is going through at a decent angle when the truck is at rest on the ground. i've got the yellow poly bushing so far at the front trailing arms, all locations and i suspect it will definitely have an effect on handling. The extra stiffness on the frame mounts i think will make a difference in braking behavior when you consider the weight of the entire vehicle minus the axle is going through those rubber bushings when braking. Edited by ewalberg 3/16/2009 5:40 AM | ||
| #146661 - in reply to #143239 |
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| AlanMcR Expert Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: US, CA, Los Altos Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL Posts: 3500 | Re: panhard and radius arm bushing replacement. how to? The panhard bushings do have a thin outer shell. This shell is prone to being crushed on insertion. The MB tool has a curved face that mates with the shell. It can be installed w/o the special tool. I think the outer shell and inner sleeve are shaped to ensure that the panhard rod cannot move around, even if the rubber fails.
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| #146679 - in reply to #146661 |
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| ewalberg Expert Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: Past: San Francisco. Present: Germany Vehicle(s): 2000 g500 Posts: 1887 | Re: panhard and radius arm bushing replacement. how to? Another question: Can anybody look up and see if the little round stabilizer bar bushings have changed part numbers from historically on the 463? (i'm not talking about the big odd shapes ones that attached to the trailing arms, i'm referring to those which (1) go in the end holes on the stablizer bar and in (2) the pivoting mounts which connect to the frame. They should be the same. The fellow at desert service says he's never heard of a 463 having fit issues with his bushings for the stabilizer bar but mine are definitely not sized properly. Also, are the shocks gas pressurized? I noticed i'm going to have to unbolt the rear shocks to get the trailing arm bolts out (annoying!) and i'm wondering if i'm going to need to jack the frame up to get the bolt out, or at least have to jack it to get the shocks back in... Thanks ahead of time. Edited by ewalberg 3/17/2009 4:50 PM | ||
| #146778 - in reply to #143239 |
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| MiN Extreme Veteran Date registered: May 2006 Location: Alpujarras, Spain Vehicle(s): No cars, at all. Posts: 555 | Re: panhard and radius arm bushing replacement. how to? You only need to undo the lower bolt on the shocks. Threre is then enough movement in the shock to push it out of the way of the trailing arms bolts. You'll need to jack the frame up to remove and then re-align the bottom of the shock once the trailing arm has been replaced. | ||
| #146830 - in reply to #143239 |
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| ewalberg Expert Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: Past: San Francisco. Present: Germany Vehicle(s): 2000 g500 Posts: 1887 | Re: panhard and radius arm bushing replacement. how to? perfect! Thanks! Anybody know anything about the stabilizers bushings and size/part number changes? Edited by ewalberg 3/18/2009 3:38 PM | ||
| #146852 - in reply to #146830 |
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| 512bbi Expert Date registered: Jan 2007 Location: North western US and Europe Vehicle(s): 05G55kge,Range rover classic,clk55amg,ML 430 Posts: 1313 | Re: panhard and radius arm bushing replacement. how to? ewalberg - 3/16/2009 3:34 AM Quick question, is the rubber in the panhard bushings really only like .05" thick?.... a little over a millimetet?... or is the outside metal housing a thin shell that's shaped inward? Side observation, the inside of the steel inner sleeve is hollowed out from the inside... i have no idea why? Also, i think i definitely found the culprit for my steering wobble, both left and right side trailing arm bushings that attach to the axle... the ones nearest the driver, were ripped and it is pretty easy to manipulate the inner sleeve... which it should be. The further forward bushings were in better shape.I used an inner race from my wheel bearing job to knock the bushings out of the trailing arms. I've been using a fair amount of AeroKroil,... some stuff that helps loosen bolts. It's making the job a lot easier i suspect. I've got 130k miles on the truck. One pit tip, the reality is the the frame to trailing arm bushings are constantly stressed downward... as if you've added a 3 inch lift... which i haven't, and the original bushings show it... in fact it looks like they were tightened up without lining things up better. you have to jack up the axle at the trailing arm at the low hanging spot (just behind the front bushing) to get the trailing arm to enter the frame mount straight in... at rest it point up pretty bad, and if you try and jack it anywhere else it either pushes up or down to strongly to assembly. Mario, i agree it shouldn't affect the tilt at all... although i do plan to drive around the block and lean it a little left and right before full tightening the axle/trailing arm bolts to get them to settle properly before cranking down on it, and in this way i think it may affect the tilt. At the axle interface the poly is tight going in and the metal center are also tight going into the poly so it should be nice and snug in there. SO far everything has been nice and tight accept the little round steering stabilizer bits. Too loose if you ask me. I'm going to e-mail him about it. i have them in the ends of the stabilizer, but i'm opting not to put them at the upper linkage to the stabilizer because removing them later if my thoughts are correct that they're too lose... will be a pain in the buttt... at least on the right side where my exhaust routes through. I will crank down on the trailing arm to frame bolts while i have the trailing arm jacked to get everything lined up... the bolt is going through at a decent angle when the truck is at rest on the ground. i've got the yellow poly bushing so far at the front trailing arms, all locations and i suspect it will definitely have an effect on handling. The extra stiffness on the frame mounts i think will make a difference in braking behavior when you consider the weight of the entire vehicle minus the axle is going through those rubber bushings when braking. Eric You are beating me to this ...a friend mechanic that would do the bushings these week can not make it yet, we might start tomorrow. I suspect you will be amazed when you drive the truck after is all done it will be better than new and I do not think it will drive any stiffer since the poly effects the axles from going forward and backwards not up and down as the suspension works. I am not surprised at all with your findings on the axle end since I had a bad one with really low miles. Please be careful with the ones to the frame I think they are very critical to be installed right, I have been told the rubber ones need 150 foot pounds with a torque wrench before you drive and another tech told me the nuts can go to the end...I do not like neither way with the poly ...I think you should torque them when they are straight in as you install them and after they are all the same all four corners THEN you drive the truck and you should not have to re torque after driving. I would love to see what your old ones look like right after you take them out ..any photos? Mine at twenty k miles where crap and I suspect they will be the same again(the ones by the frame and the most critical to drivability I am surprised about the sway bar little ones being too small.....have you evaluated this with the metal part in them ? Also back to the trailing to frame ones you will notice if you compare thickness height(what should compress when you brake at the front) they are slightly smaller.....for a purpose I believe when you torque them the same amount as if you were putting in the rubber ones they will be the same size since they flex less under the same load. Just went out and looked at the little sway bar ones ...from what I can tell they look the right size. My sway bar is one inch plus for hundred and sixty thousands in other words 40 thousands less than an inch and a half . Would you please let me know what yours is for reference I know they are different part numbers. Best luck and eager to hear more Mario | ||
| #146890 - in reply to #146661 |
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| ewalberg Expert Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: Past: San Francisco. Present: Germany Vehicle(s): 2000 g500 Posts: 1887 | Re: panhard and radius arm bushing replacement. how to? I agree on installation of the frame bushings. Whether my original bushings were tired and deformed from use i don't know, but they "look" like they were tightened up with the trailing arm bold NOT heading straight in. And also likely due to their age, there were specifically shorter than the poly bushes. They weren't round enough to compare diameter... you could see where they had squished a little out from behind the big washers so they were fairly oval. I tightened mine at the frame to probably 150-160nm. I think the nut bottomed out on the bolt at around 70nm to 110nm... just guessing though, but you can feel it hit bottom. I was tempted to just change the front bushes to prove it was the problem and to get my baby up and running fair ASAP, but it's fun driving the lotus, and i figured it'd be more satisfying (and indicative) changing all the bushes first. Front shocks already changed couple months ago, i'll be changing out my rears while since i'm already gonna need to unbolt them at the bottom. As mentioned before, (I've only done fronts so far) I started by just hand fitting the frame side into it's hole and then getting the bolts loosely into the axle side... then i found i needed to jack the trailing arm up in a very specific spot (described above) to go in nice and straight for fitting the back side bushings and tightening up. I'll measure my holes in my trailing arms and take part number on it, and measure the bushings. The Desert Service guy could probably use the info as well. They're loose for sure.... i did test with steel sleeve, i noted and he agreed that the steel sleeves should be hand fittable in these so they wont help. They basically look okay for fit but the ID of the hold on the sway bar is a good bit larger... i'd guess .040" to .080" and they have probably the same amount of axial slop.... and the hassle of changing the frame side bushes stabilizer bushes you'd have to remove the damned right trailing arm on mine (maybe both on yours since exhaust exits on both sides, or maybe a little easier on your right side since you only have one engine side exhaust per side... both exit on my right side) so i'm leaving them alone. It's easy enough to change the stabilizer bar bushes after the fact so i can change them if i need to. If you can measure the ID of your stabilizer bar holes that might help too. The trailing arm to stabilizer bushes seem slightly small in the bracket that holds them but they should tighten up fine once bolted into place. Where i'm tempted to run things loose for a drive around the block is at the axle to let the bushings settle in to senter from having been pressed. Realistically since the bolts are between large metal plates it may not make a difference. Oh, i'd also consider putting a small chamfer on the steel sleeves for the axle bushings... it'll help get them started in the bushings. First the bushings go into the trailing arm, then the sleeves... | ||
| #146938 - in reply to #146890 |
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| ewalberg Expert Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: Past: San Francisco. Present: Germany Vehicle(s): 2000 g500 Posts: 1887 | Re: panhard and radius arm bushing replacement. how to? Well, i've now replaced my front panhard rod bushings, and all trailing arm bushings with the http://www.desert-service.com/shop/ yellow poly bushings. I also replaced the big bushing on the steering stabilizer to trailing arm with the their poly bushings. The little bushings between the steering stabilizer and frame linkages i didn't replace with poly becuase his bushings had a lot of clearance and they're supposed to be at least a light press. The steering wheel wobble problem is 85% solved and the truck does feel more level in the turns but I haven't played around with hard braking to see tell if there's an imrpovement there. During my ownership i've had it vere left, vere right and not vere at all under hard breaking, so i'm not really planning on assigning it's behavior to the bushings. At the least I want to recheck my alignment. AND NOW>>> THE MOST INTERESTING THING. My truck sits level!!! It's always had a fairly noticeable left lean. I think the reality is that it may be that before i tightened down the trailing arm to axle bolts, i stood on the right side running boards and rocked the truck back and forth in an attempt to bias it to the right (it's perhaps a cousin of the "official" fix posted elsewhere). So i'm bummed my steering wheel wobble isn't gone but i'm quite pleased she's sitting level at least. I think my t-case mounts may be playing into the wobble, becuase the left rear t-case mount can pretty easily be moved maybe 1/4" and it feels a little like the wobble in the t-case shifter is timed with the wobble in my steering wheel. As well, with the dual steering stabilizer in place you can still feel there's some vibration but it feels a little more in the seat than in the steering wheel. t-case mounts aren't cheap though...  Edited by ewalberg 4/6/2009 4:00 PM | ||
| #148136 - in reply to #143239 |
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