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Thai G
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Jul 2007
Location: Texas
Vehicle(s): 2004 G500
Posts: 940
| Re: Transfer Case in Neutral - let's get scientific
Are all transfer cases (from other brands) have similar plastic gears in the motor?
Edited by Thai G 11/13/2009 9:12 PM
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BlueG
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Aug 2009
Location: DC
Vehicle(s): 2003 G500
Posts: 714
| Re: Transfer Case in Neutral - let's get scientific
Im not aware of any other manufacturer making motors for our transfercases other than Bosch. |
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Thai G
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Jul 2007
Location: Texas
Vehicle(s): 2004 G500
Posts: 940
| Re: Transfer Case in Neutral - let's get scientific
I was talking about any other TC manufacturers, not just for our trucks. |
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ewalberg
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Past: San Francisco. Present: Germany
Vehicle(s): 2000 g500
Posts: 1887
| Re: Transfer Case in Neutral - let's get scientific
Plastic isn't necessarily the problem there are some amazing plastics... plastic selection could be the issue... ie. the bean counters or cost reduction engineers selecting a cheaper/weaker plastic than what was originally spec'd to save some money.... do a few tests, sure, looks good enough... then Bang!... after it's already sold in thousands of trucks. It's also a system that's tied to electrics so if the electronics software or hardware has issues then it can put "unintended/unexpected" forces on things that weren't "supposed" to happen. Metal gears could simply have meant that you burn the motor instead of the gears... just moving the failure to a different location... for better or worse we don't know.
I'm going to guess that metal gears are really only used anymore for power deliver (lilke trasmissions and axles). Motion control (moving components from one place to another is probably done with plastics in the majority of cases).
Edited by ewalberg 11/16/2009 6:10 PM
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BlueG
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Aug 2009
Location: DC
Vehicle(s): 2003 G500
Posts: 714
| Re: Transfer Case in Neutral - let's get scientific
I mean I think the smartest system would be a Hi/Low range lever. The Pre-MBUSA trucks all had a lever that seemed to work just fine. Sure the wife may have trouble clunking it into gear but last time I checked a person who can't engage low range won't be needing low range. I would love a retrofit kit that just gives me a lever and eliminates the button but that won't be happening. |
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MarcO
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Irvington, NY
Vehicle(s): G 500 SWB, Volvo XC90 V8
Posts: 835
| Re: Transfer Case in Neutral - let's get scientific
Thai et al -
So let's assume the bean counters are responsible for this bit of "majestic" engineering. I have no idea how the transfer case in my '99 works but I am willing to bet that it is less complicated and more robust than this silly bit of $500 screw the owner crap. Can any one here explain to me (us) how the older system works and maybe show some parts? If the bean counters were so pervasive that they got to the window regulators and the transfer cases, any thoughts on the "same" tranny in my now departed '05??
This kind of information is exactly the reason I will no longer buy an MB product until there has been some change in the pecking order at corporate where the bean counters do not over-rule the engineers. |
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Thai G
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Jul 2007
Location: Texas
Vehicle(s): 2004 G500
Posts: 940
| Re: Transfer Case in Neutral - let's get scientific
Most of the newer SUVs have electronic connection between the transfer case and the dial/lever. For example, in the FJ Cruiser, there is a lever for the TC...but that lever is connected to electronics that are then connected to the TC...so, the lever in the FJ is no better than the switch in the G500 (MBUSA). I wonder how other manufacturers are making these tiny motors...plastic. vs. metal. Maybe these failures are batch-related or related to switching to 4-LO while moving (as opposed to stopping and then switching into 4-LO)?? I know that it is OK to switch to 4-LO while moving under 15 mph, but i wonder if this creates more stress?? |
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BlueG
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Aug 2009
Location: DC
Vehicle(s): 2003 G500
Posts: 714
| Re: Transfer Case in Neutral - let's get scientific
Well lets make a couple things clear. The failure on the transfercase parts so far has been isolated to the older units, who knows what the more robust design will bring.
The preMBUSA gwagen transfercase is the same as the MBUSA one, the difference being that the MBUSA just has an electronic actuator whereas the older trucks had a shift rod. The reason the shift rod is gone is so that there could be a center console. |
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Thai G
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Jul 2007
Location: Texas
Vehicle(s): 2004 G500
Posts: 940
| Re: Transfer Case in Neutral - let's get scientific
Just a quick update...on my previous post. My 2004 G500 was made in March 2004...and now has 65,373 miles. Plenty of off-roading on it the first 50k miles...used predominantly low range while off-roading. To date, no issue with H/L indicator nor actual TC malfunction. |
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MarcO
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Irvington, NY
Vehicle(s): G 500 SWB, Volvo XC90 V8
Posts: 835
| Re: Transfer Case in Neutral - let's get scientific
Sorry but maybe I was not clear. My query was not about how OTHER manufacturers engineer and execute. I specifically avoided the comparative rant. Could someone educate me (us) on how the pre USA transfer cases work and what materials are used? The issue I am pointing to is the internal comparison that we have all discussed in a very (well, not always) collegial way. I have significant and real concern that the current MB bean counters have run the prestigious mark into the ground. I look forward to being educated here.
Edited by MarcO 11/17/2009 1:54 PM
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djdinaz
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: Jun 2007
Location: Arizona
Vehicle(s): 03 G55
Posts: 439
| Re: Transfer Case in Neutral - let's get scientific
Looking at the WIS for a VG750.650 - 653, the pre MBUSA transfer cases have a shift lever. Think old-school top-loader transmission. A gear lever goes directly into the transfer case, and (I presume) a shifting fork is used internally to change between the high and low range gearing.
The overly-complex post MBUSA change replaces that metal gearshift lever with a plastic actuator, a button, and a control module to track/monitor position of the internal gears.
Because MB/Bosh was kind enough to NOT issue an updated part number, there's no telling when the actual change to the updated actuator gearing took place. (see the comparison pics early in this thread). The part number off of an '02 is the same as off an '09. |
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BlueG
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Aug 2009
Location: DC
Vehicle(s): 2003 G500
Posts: 714
| Re: Transfer Case in Neutral - let's get scientific
MarcO - 11/17/2009 12:54 PM
Sorry but maybe I was not clear. My query was not about how OTHER manufacturers engineer and execute. I specifically avoided the comparative rant. Could someone educate me (us) on how the pre USA transfer cases work and what materials are used? The issue I am pointing to is the internal comparison that we have all discussed in a very (well, not always) collegial way. I have significant and real concern that the current MB bean counters have run the prestigious mark into the ground. I look forward to being educated here.
This is what I was saying above. PREMBUSA and MBUSA transfercase is the same unit as far as I know. Actuation is the only difference. The newer ones are actuated electronically, PREMBUSA are actuated mechanically. Is that what you were after? |
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MarcO
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Irvington, NY
Vehicle(s): G 500 SWB, Volvo XC90 V8
Posts: 835
| Re: Transfer Case in Neutral - let's get scientific
So it appears from above that only the TC actuator is different. Does it make sense that with the stresses that this actuator must face on a daily (if used daily) basis this actuator should be made of plastic? How would my mechanical 99 metal gearshift fare if made out of plastic? Use the same logic on the window regulator. My 99 has NEVER had a window regulator changed - repaired (I have all the service records). Fellas, this type of dilution of the MB brand is what has driven me away. The window regulator is an annoyance. The TC can be a serious issue and can strand you. My transmission issue was due to a failure of some of the plastic parts I am told that could not stand up to the upgraded torque that I was putting on it (this is my fault) but I maintain had the bean counters kept their little fingers out of these vehicles then I would still be driving my 55. Finally, I really do believe that the pre MBUSA G is a better vehicle as defined overall engineering quality. I get a real chuckle when I view the latest E class commercial with the car stopping itself when approaching another vehicle too fast. My G did that too. In fact it came to a dead stop but without any approaching vehicle. One of the most interesting conversations I had regarding this issue had to do with the COMAND unit and the requirements for replacement that MBUSA places on dealers. They basically swap them out if there is any complaint. MB knows about the poor antenna connection in the back that makes AM almost unusable and makes satellite radio reset the whole system after prolonged usage. Simply retrofitting a better antenna connections fixes this problem but they rather swap out units which only do the same thing because this takes less technician time - customer be damned. Also dealers have to tie up capital to have the units on hand so they get screwed too as the technician time is a direct expense to MB. My time is too valuable to be treated like this and I think yours is too. I would not trust MB today to tie my shoe let alone sell me a car.
There, I feel better. Rant over. I will try to control myself.
Edited by MarcO 11/18/2009 1:30 PM
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DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
Posts: 9963
| Re: Transfer Case in Neutral - let's get scientific
MarcO - 11/18/2009 1:16 PM
There, I feel better. Rant over. I will try to control myself.
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Thai G
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Jul 2007
Location: Texas
Vehicle(s): 2004 G500
Posts: 940
| Re: Transfer Case in Neutral - let's get scientific
MarcO - 11/18/2009 12:16 PM
My transmission issue was due to a failure of some of the plastic parts I am told that could not stand up to the upgraded torque that I was putting on it (this is my fault)
blah, blah, blah  But i do like this admission on your part...it took a while, but you finally came around it!  It is amazing how many engineers we have on this board....
Bigger question...and the one that have not been answered...do OTHER manufacturers use similar plastic parts in their electronic TC?? Before we jump to conclusion about bean counters, why don't we get some proof on the matter at hand?? Is this issue widespread?? Do the dealers have a protocol to fix this? Or is this a rare problem?? Does anyone have any data to this?
Edited by Thai G 11/18/2009 3:26 PM
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BlueG
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Aug 2009
Location: DC
Vehicle(s): 2003 G500
Posts: 714
| Re: Transfer Case in Neutral - let's get scientific
Thai G - 11/18/2009 3:22 PM
MarcO - 11/18/2009 12:16 PM
My transmission issue was due to a failure of some of the plastic parts I am told that could not stand up to the upgraded torque that I was putting on it (this is my fault)
blah, blah, blah But i do like this admission on your part...it took a while, but you finally came around it! It is amazing how many engineers we have on this board....
Bigger question...and the one that have not been answered...do OTHER manufacturers use similar plastic parts in their electronic TC?? Before we jump to conclusion about bean counters, why don't we get some proof on the matter at hand?? Is this issue widespread?? Do the dealers have a protocol to fix this? Or is this a rare problem?? Does anyone have any data to this?
I like where your head is at. Metal gears of that size are rare and usually avoided because they too can strip with such small teeth. I just did a google search of transfercase motors and many of them are just a female motor that attaches to a male transfercase part. None the less the female parts were metal... |
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MarcO
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Irvington, NY
Vehicle(s): G 500 SWB, Volvo XC90 V8
Posts: 835
| Re: Transfer Case in Neutral - let's get scientific
So because OTHER manufacturers (who may offer full time four wheel drive vehicles) use plastic parts then the use of them in our expensive and rugged G's is OK???
I do not "like where your head is at" so to speak. The valid comparison is what did MB do with the transfer case before. As one who goes fishing in the middle of nowhere (I mean no cell service, no road, no nothing) I need to be able to get out of where I got into. My '99 has never had a problem. Two of my vehicles (both '02's) were immobilized by this transfer case issue. Both required tows. So with all due respect, did the prior G's use plastic parts in the top loader style transfer case actuation or did they use metal parts to do this job?? I really think that is the issue. Similarly have ANY pre MBUSA users been stranded by a TC malfunction on this board? I really do not see how a Toyota using a set of plastic actuators for their setup is in any way comparable to this situation. |
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Thai G
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Jul 2007
Location: Texas
Vehicle(s): 2004 G500
Posts: 940
| Re: Transfer Case in Neutral - let's get scientific
MarcO - 11/19/2009 8:22 AM
So because OTHER manufacturers (who may offer full time four wheel drive vehicles) use plastic parts then the use of them in our expensive and rugged G's is OK???
I do not "like where your head is at" so to speak. The valid comparison is what did MB do with the transfer case before. As one who goes fishing in the middle of nowhere (I mean no cell service, no road, no nothing) I need to be able to get out of where I got into. My '99 has never had a problem. Two of my vehicles (both '02's) were immobilized by this transfer case issue. Both required tows. So with all due respect, did the prior G's use plastic parts in the top loader style transfer case actuation or did they use metal parts to do this job?? I really think that is the issue. Similarly have ANY pre MBUSA users been stranded by a TC malfunction on this board? I really do not see how a Toyota using a set of plastic actuators for their setup is in any way comparable to this situation.
Marco, i thought that my post was pretty clear. Did the pre-MBUSA G use an electronic switch?? No. Maybe the plastic whatever thingy was used FOR A REASON and not just due to financial reasons. Why don't you hold off on your ridiculous rant until we get more facts?? Simple request i would assume. The reason why i bought up Toyota (or any other brand) is that if other brands do the same, then maybe there is an engineering reason behind it. Again, i thought that i was pretty clear on this point. I don't claim to understand the inner workings of the TC...and thus, i am still waiting for more answers. You should do the same IMHO.
Pre-MBUSA G500s also had issue with the harmonic balancer destroying the engine. That can cause even more damage! Things happen. I have not seen you rant about that or how preMBUSA trucks can't get any parts from MB!
Unlike the harmonic balancer issue, this transfer case issue is still NOT clear...at least to me. Karl had an issue with it and it was an electrical connection, while Richard had a different cause of a similar problem. And Karl's plastic thingy was still good. So, before we jump to conclusion, why don't we consider other possibilities. Marco, do you get my point NOW????
And as for fishing in the middle of nowhere, i really question why you bought a Cayenne in the first place!!  Hey, lets bash again the transmission in the G55k that YOU blew due to ignorant modifications that you made to your G55k!!  Oh yeah, those mods were done specifically for your fishing trips too??
Edited by Thai G 11/19/2009 3:18 PM
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DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
Posts: 9963
| Re: Transfer Case in Neutral - let's get scientific
Thai G - 11/19/2009 3:12 PM
Pre-MBUSA G500s also had issue with the harmonic balancer destroying the engine. That can cause even more damage!
It was not only the preMBUSA G500's that had the problem. Actually, there were a whole flock of MBUSA models that had the same problem - every single M112 and M113 engine used in several MBUSA models from that time period.
I have not seen you rant about that or how preMBUSA trucks can't get any parts from MB!
Why rant? I get parts for my preMBUSA truck from an MBUSA dealer on a regular basis. No problem whatsoever, so there's no need to rant. |
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Thai G
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Jul 2007
Location: Texas
Vehicle(s): 2004 G500
Posts: 940
| Re: Transfer Case in Neutral - let's get scientific
DUTCH - 11/19/2009 3:16 PM
It was not only the preMBUSA G500's that had the problem. Actually, there were a whole flock of MBUSA models that had the same problem - every single M112 and M113 engine used in several MBUSA models from that time period.
Why rant? I get parts for my preMBUSA truck from an MBUSA dealer on a regular basis. No problem whatsoever, so there's no need to rant.
I could swear i wrote: "pre-MBUSA G500s"...emphasis on "G500s" since Marco is directly comparing G-wagens, not other MB vehicles.
You are lucky...but i have read many problems with that from other members.
Edited by Thai G 11/19/2009 4:31 PM
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