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chris505
Date registered: May 2007
Location: San Francisco
Vehicle(s): '79 280E/'80 280GE/'00 G500
| Re: Transfer Case in Neutral - let's get scientific
NoPaint - 11/17/2009 8:58 AM
The reason the shift rod is gone is so that there could be a center console.
Im sure this is part of the story, a reason people @ Europa gave in 2001 was that too many owners complaining about vibrations coming from the lever  who would buy a $80,000 mercedes that has a lever from a tractor? |
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mick the digger!
Regular
Date registered: Oct 2009
Location: co wicklow, Ireland
Vehicle(s): two auto 300GD 460's,TD6 range rover vogue.
Posts: 70
| Re: Transfer Case in Neutral - let's get scientific
chris505 - 11/19/2009 9:31 PM
NoPaint - 11/17/2009 8:58 AM
The reason the shift rod is gone is so that there could be a center console.
Im sure this is part of the story, a reason people @ Europa gave in 2001 was that too many owners complaining about vibrations coming from the lever who would buy a $80,000 mercedes that has a lever from a tractor?
your probably right but it didnt seem to bother anyone buying a 100 series land cruiser for the same price....  |
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BlueG
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Aug 2009
Location: DC
Vehicle(s): 2003 G500
Posts: 714
| Re: Transfer Case in Neutral - let's get scientific
Well the G did it again. This time it only thought it was in neutral and said "TC in Neutral" but the vehicle still moved even though the square that is supposed to show H or L showed nothing. I guess its time to replace that motor. DANG IT! |
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ewalberg
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Past: San Francisco. Present: Germany
Vehicle(s): 2000 g500
Posts: 1887
| Re: Transfer Case in Neutral - let's get scientific
(this is not necessarily directed at you thai, but it's convenient enough to post here)
Look guys, the problem ISN'T the plastic. It's like blaming just eggs for your high cholestrerol. I think good old fashion "cause" and "effect" are also being mixed up here...
To often people nit-pick on specific items and forget to step back and look at the bigger picture. It doesn't just matter what they make it out of... what matters is how it's designed, manufactured, and tested. The materials are simply a biproduct of the design/build/test process. Was the system properly designed and tested as it was released initially? NO. And you can't just blame the material that the part was made from because the failure may have actually been in the sensors or the electronics hardware or software that drove the plastics to failure. Can it be designed to work in plastic? Yes, it's already shown to be the case with the redesigns. is plastic the issue? no. Does it matter if other manufacturers use plastic? no. What matters is how they designed and tested it... and what mercedes failed to do was appropriately design/build/test it. The cause of the failure is not the plastic. The result of their failure to appropriately design/build/test it broken plastic.
The problem is with the SYSTEM... electronics, mechanical hardware, electrical hardware, and software. It is a more complicated system which is more likely to fail. It appears to have been totally fixed and they're still using plastic parts. it was a design iteration issue. Sometimes evolution in design brings improvements where there are existing problems (such as with this t-case motor problem), other times the evolution of a design begets problems because they're trying to save money or improve manufacturability of an existing design that already works (such as the window mechanisms).
They did use plastic for a reason. It's cheaper and faster to prototype, cheaper to make and cheaper to assembly and store and ship. Even if they intenntionally made it the weak link to prevent it from toasting the whole tranny, the point is it's a system which had frequent failures due to insufficient verification of the design to meet it's requirements... is what's unacceptable.
"Those cheap bastard, they should have made it out of steel" or "why didn't they make it out of steel" is a narrow styled approach to the failure which usually results in slapping expensive bandaids on things rather than addessing the real issues... if they tried to make our truck entirely from steel it would weigh 8000lbs and probably cost $200k... and that's not realistic...
The manufacturing and quality systems should have caught a shoddy design and a robust design should have been able to survive a shoddy manufacturing or quality system. WE DON"T KNOW where the failure really occured... and the broken plastic part is simply the messenger that there exists an upstream problem. That they used plastic is the least of the issue.
PS: The ability of getting parts for a vehicle is totally off topic. It is a valid part of a wholistic discussion of how one decides which vehicle is right for them... yet nobody is threatening the choice of vehicle here so why is there a need to go off topic and start disscussion of parts availability? It rings of defending ones purchase. Nothing in this thread should threaten anyone that has already purchased their truck... at most it might make someone consider that a newer or older truck might have made more sense, and it should be useful for someone who is considering what year to purchase.
Edited by ewalberg 11/19/2009 7:45 PM
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DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
Posts: 9963
| "Europa"
mick the digger! - 11/19/2009 5:40 PM
chris505 - 11/19/2009 9:31 PM
NoPaint - 11/17/2009 8:58 AM
The reason the shift rod is gone is so that there could be a center console.
Im sure this is part of the story, a reason people @ Europa gave in 2001 was that too many owners complaining about vibrations coming from the lever who would buy a $80,000 mercedes that has a lever from a tractor?
your probably right but it didnt seem to bother anyone buying a 100 series land cruiser for the same price.... :err:
Just to clarify, the "Europa" to which he refers is Europa International of Santa Fe, NM - not Europa as in the German spelling of the continent. This company was an unofficial importer of the G500's before MBUSA started selling them.
When Europa International was selling the G500, their list price was US$135,000.00 - a very high price as compared to the normal price in Europe. For that price, Europa International's well heeled customers expected only the best; and those customers, who would not be the LR 100 Series buyer type, could be the type to complain about a vibrating shift lever. |
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Thai G
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Jul 2007
Location: Texas
Vehicle(s): 2004 G500
Posts: 940
| Re: Transfer Case in Neutral - let's get scientific
ewalberg - 11/19/2009 6:32 PM
PS: The ability of getting parts for a vehicle is totally off topic. It is a valid part of a wholistic discussion of how one decides which vehicle is right for them... yet nobody is threatening the choice of vehicle here so why is there a need to go off topic and start disscussion of parts availability? It rings of defending ones purchase. Nothing in this thread should threaten anyone that has already purchased their truck... at most it might make someone consider that a newer or older truck might have made more sense, and it should be useful for someone who is considering what year to purchase.
Erik, good post. The last PS part is where i disagree with. I find it funny that someone's rant is OK, while a criticism of that rant is not. The lack of parts (or availability of such) should not deter someone from looking at an older G...or that the harmonic balancer was bad should not either...or a misunderstood TC issue on early MBUSA Gs. Please re-read Marco's rant (and subsequent rants) again. I believe that you miss my point almost completely about bringing up those points.
One more quick point. The reason i brought up other manufacturer's design is that IF other folks use plastic in their TC (in a similar fashion), then we can assume that plastic is not the problem here and that the real problem may be with what Erik described above (design, testing, etc.). If everyone else uses metal thingy instead of plastic, then we can leave that possibility (of MB being cheap in using plastic) on the table.
The main thing is to find out if MB made any changes during the production years. Did MB fixed the issue by 2004?? I would like to know when Karl's G500 was made. Did something change? Blaming it on "design, testing, etc." is easy, but finding out what exactly changed (if any) is a lot more useful IMHO. My local Indy dealer has not heard of this problem, nor has my dealer...is this a widespread problem or a rarity??
I sure hope that MB fixed the TC issue by 3/04! 
Edited by Thai G 11/20/2009 8:39 AM
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MarcO
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Irvington, NY
Vehicle(s): G 500 SWB, Volvo XC90 V8
Posts: 835
| Re: Transfer Case in Neutral - let's get scientific
Thai, love the word ridiculous. Again, I have ALWAYS taken responsibility for the 55 mods. I do not blame the tranny on MB as I was responsible and I have always said so. Now calling the mods ignorant is really just inflammatory and rather than dignify your antagonistic response with an equally vitriolic response I would rather steer towards the original post. I still do not understand your insinuating Toyota engineering into this discussion. The issue here is not the harmonic balancer or getting parts or my choosing a Cayenne to go fishing (actually I said the SWB was doing yeoman's duty). I simply want to know if the use of plastic actuators was present on the preMBUSA. I point out that I have never heard of a transfer case problem leaving one stranded on a pre MBUSA G, have you?
"The reason i brought up other manufacturer's design is that IF other folks use plastic in their TC (in a similar fashion), then we can assume that plastic is not the problem here and that the real problem may be with what Erik described above (design, testing, etc.). If everyone else uses metal thingy instead of plastic, then we can leave that possibility (of MB being cheap in using plastic) on the table"
I really do not see any logic in the above statement. Other manufacturers may use plastic but how can you "assume that plastic is not the problem here". Are you kidding? With different drive trains, motors, ratios, acutatuors, you think that there is some kind of vindication in the use of plastic by another company doing it? That is just illogical to me. Particularly when a vehicle of similar size and weight with a very similar motor and almost identical is right before us begging the comparison. Why are you so reticent to compare the pre to post G wagens. I am asking a very simple question. Did the prior design use plastic to switch the transfer case? Should be pretty obvious from that anwer and I still do not know the answer.
So can anyone tell me if plastic parts were used to change the transfer case from high to low in the preMBUSA G or not?
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DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
Posts: 9963
| Re: Transfer Case in Neutral - let's get scientific
MarcO - 11/21/2009 4:10 PM
So can anyone tell me if plastic parts were used to change the transfer case from high to low in the preMBUSA G or not?
Not. |
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MarcO
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Irvington, NY
Vehicle(s): G 500 SWB, Volvo XC90 V8
Posts: 835
| Re: Transfer Case in Neutral - let's get scientific
Thanks. That's what I thought. |
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BlueG
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Aug 2009
Location: DC
Vehicle(s): 2003 G500
Posts: 714
| Re: Transfer Case in Neutral - let's get scientific
MarcO - 11/21/2009 5:00 PM
Thanks. That's what I thought.
Im not sure if you understand how the transfercase works but the previous G didn't have any gears to actuate the transfercase. Instead it was using levers.
Your argument is: the bean counters made the G cheaper by having the electronic actuation over the lever.
Why it is false: A lever is cheaper than ---> a leather and wood center console, a switch, transfercase control module, transfercase motor, and wiring.
So I mean yeah they may have poorly engineered some early units but nonetheless the update makes it work right. |
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ewalberg
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Past: San Francisco. Present: Germany
Vehicle(s): 2000 g500
Posts: 1887
| Re: Transfer Case in Neutral - let's get scientific
the existince of a center console probably came about from both marketing requirements to have one and the need for space for the storage of extra electronics... it is not the bean counters decision to add a center console. The bean counters are simply always present pushing for ways to save money where ever possible, or at least as an engineer you've had it pretty well pounded into you head even if they're not ever present. I probably would have used plastic gears... but i should say that i'm desiging "single use" (disposable) medical devices so using plastic is highly preferred over metal unless it's a stampable part, which gears are not... they're generally machined which is a very expensive manufacturing processes.
Based on my exposure to the design process, product launches and product lifecycles, i would argue that failures of products at the onset of a product launch are the result of a failure somewhere in the design/build/test loop... degenerative failures which occur after something has already been produced for a while are due to bean counters trying to cost reduce something. In my world bean counters don't have all that much influence on the initial design unless it's truly cost prohibitive. After it's in production and generating sales, then it's time to bring in the cost reduction efforts.
There are however, actual cases where going to electronics is actually cheaper than mechanical systems. The heater/vent controls in the older g's is a combination of levers, sliders, pulleys, cables and cable housings, screws, nuts, etcetera... so i've been told a design largely similar to how they did it in the 1940's... it might actually be more expensive than having one button that toggles through the settings and a couple servos controlling it. However, i do believe marketing requirements are what drove the switch to an electronic transfer case... for years i thought push button 4wd was a cool idea when i had my pathfinder. It's FANCY! I also didn't think there was anything wrong with bigger rims... new "features" are the incessant goal of marketing to sell product. it's everyone elses job at the company to try and figure out how to manage manufacturability issues, reliablitity issues, cost issues... you name it... and there is certainly no one who has the responsibility to educate people where they are being duped.
Marco, i thought you had 2 shops both tell you the tranny failed due to non-torque/horespower related reasons?... The headers, makes sense were over torqued based on what i've seen in the lotus cars environment.
Edited by ewalberg 11/22/2009 6:28 AM
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Thai G
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Jul 2007
Location: Texas
Vehicle(s): 2004 G500
Posts: 940
| Re: Transfer Case in Neutral - let's get scientific
ewalberg - 11/22/2009 5:24 AM
However, i do believe marketing requirements are what drove the switch to an electronic transfer case...
I would bet that the switch in MOST (not all) cases has to do with preserving space on the center console...probably for more cupholders!  As noted above, having a lever may actually be a marketing gimmick in itself because it is more favored by the macho customer. For example, again bringing up other manufacturers (warning to marco to skip this part!), in the FJ Cruiser and the 2010 4runner Trail, there is indeed a lever, but it is totally electronic underneath (like the MBUSA G)...while the 2010 4runner Limited has the the transfer case dial. Both the lever and the dial work the same as i have been told, but just different presentation to different group of customers. Maybe the electronic TC is easier to engage (smoother?) than the truly manual engagement? Seemingly, a lot of car manufacturers are switching to electronic TC...are all of them done for marketing or due to bean counters??? I don't know.
Edited by Thai G 11/22/2009 9:04 AM
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Thai G
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Jul 2007
Location: Texas
Vehicle(s): 2004 G500
Posts: 940
| Re: Transfer Case in Neutral - let's get scientific
MarcO - 11/21/2009 3:10 PM
I simply want to know if the use of plastic actuators was present on the preMBUSA. I point out that I have never heard of a transfer case problem leaving one stranded on a pre MBUSA G, have you?
Other manufacturers may use plastic but how can you "assume that plastic is not the problem here". Are you kidding? With different drive trains, motors, ratios, acutatuors, you think that there is some kind of vindication in the use of plastic by another company doing it? That is just illogical to me.
marco, what we have here are two different ways to get into 4-LO. Simple. I thought that this got cleared up a while back in this thread. For you, it seems like you're trying to prove something here or at least to yourself....  I am just trying to find out the real problem to this issue on (early??) MBUSA G500s. As noted, this MBUSA TC issue is NOT widespread nor is it a problem in later G500s apparently. So, why are you still ranting about something that is neither widespread nor is it still a problem??? I don't ever remember you ranting about your old G55k having the TC issue. As Richard has pointed out, apparently BOSCH has made undocumented modifications to the part...so, something changed to make things reliable and durable. So, Marco, where's the fire???!!
How different is my "assumption" than your uneducated rant about something that is not proven yet??? I don't get it. You blame all this crap on the bean counters using plastic, YET Karl's TC issue was NOT about plastic failure. In fact, the ONLY person with a documented plastic failure in this whole thread is Richard. NOW, do you see why i said that your original rant was ridiculous???? (PS, "ridiculous" was me being nice...i had other less flattering thoughts when i read your rant, Marco.)
Edited by Thai G 11/22/2009 9:19 AM
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DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
Posts: 9963
| ENOUGH!!
It's certainly OK to disagree here; but it is NOT OK to use personal insults or attacks to try to make your point. |
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Indiana Drew
Expert
Date registered: Feb 2007
Location: Houston Tx
Vehicle(s): 2002 G500 LWB, 1980 280GE SWB (Sold), S500
Posts: 2223
| RE: ENOUGH!!
DUTCH - 11/22/2009 9:06 AM It's certainly OK to disagree here; but it is NOT OK to use personal insults or attacks to try to make your point. Perhaps it's time for a pole?
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DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
Posts: 9963
| RE: ENOUGH!!
Indiana Drew - 11/22/2009 10:13 AM
DUTCH - 11/22/2009 9:06 AM It's certainly OK to disagree here; but it is NOT OK to use personal insults or attacks to try to make your point. Perhaps it's time for a pole?
"Pole" or Poll? Neither is probably needed as personal attacks are simply not tolerated here. |
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Indiana Drew
Expert
Date registered: Feb 2007
Location: Houston Tx
Vehicle(s): 2002 G500 LWB, 1980 280GE SWB (Sold), S500
Posts: 2223
| RE: ENOUGH!!
DUTCH - 11/22/2009 9:43 AM Indiana Drew - 11/22/2009 10:13 AM DUTCH - 11/22/2009 9:06 AM It's certainly OK to disagree here; but it is NOT OK to use personal insults or attacks to try to make your point. Perhaps it's time for a pole?
"Pole" or Poll? Neither is probably needed as personal attacks are simply not tolerated here. Not about the personal attack - I believe more than one of us has TC problems with early MBUSA trucks that might be more than the module or the connection ...
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BlueG
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Aug 2009
Location: DC
Vehicle(s): 2003 G500
Posts: 714
| Re: Transfer Case in Neutral - let's get scientific
I say moderator deletes all the "opinions" and "speculation" so this thread will be worth something when others show up with this problem after buying an early G. There's about 2 pages of wasted space here. |
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DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
Posts: 9963
| Re: Transfer Case in Neutral - let's get scientific
NoPaint - 11/22/2009 11:29 AM
I say moderator deletes all the "opinions" and "speculation" so this thread will be worth something when others show up with this problem after buying an early G. There's about 2 pages of wasted space here.
It's a matter of delete the whole thread or nothing at all. In the spirit of under-moderation, it stays as is. |
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Indiana Drew
Expert
Date registered: Feb 2007
Location: Houston Tx
Vehicle(s): 2002 G500 LWB, 1980 280GE SWB (Sold), S500
Posts: 2223
| Re: Transfer Case in Neutral - let's get scientific
The important information is there and anyone searching for information in the future can see who has had what experience with the topic ...
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