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512bbi
Expert
Date registered: Jan 2007
Location: North western US and Europe
Vehicle(s): 05G55kge,Range rover classic,clk55amg,ML 430
Posts: 1313
| RE: SACHS HD vs Koni HT SPX on W46
Today I had in my hands and examined with the parts guys at the MB dealer the 550 shocks.
Amazing to me they do not have any rubber inside as I was expecting which proves how much better the valving is in the later model MB shocks than the older ones.
When I drove a 550 I was very impressed with the improvement over the old feel of the 500s when new.
There was lass body roll and a great behavior on bumps around down town Salt Lake when I tested a white one at Ken Garfs while my 55k was being serviced.
I am thinking the 550 being capable of faster speeds and the MB engineers knowing what is needed after the feed back they received form the 03 and 04 amg Gs that rode very harsh(for being speed capable) they managed to do a great job with the valving of these shocks for comfort and performance.
I can not find any other difference between Toms truck(500) and a 550 in the suspension than the shocks.
Unfortunately for what I wanted to do for my endless experimenting....the dust covers do not seem to come off as with the 05 amg shocks do that have cilastios inside ....at least as far as we could manage trying to open them by hand.
We did not want to force anything so the parts manager will contact the engineers and have a drawing tomorrow that will tell us if the dust covers can be removable or sealed for life.
The shocks at the front are 24.5 inches I was told after I left since forgot to measure them.
Tom
You asked me and wanted to know if they could work with red springs if you ever wanted to lift your truck.
I think they would since the difference in spring rate is minute,but where I could see a small problem is unsprung weight being higher than stock with heavier tires than the optimum ride with stock wheels and tires of a 550 or close.
I also recall a happy member here using them on his late model 55k for comfort which has front springs at front a little stronger than red MBs(only as little the yellow orange is softer than reds)
If you go with red springs the spring chart shows with your front weight loaded you are at 230mm spring length.
This is what I run with red springs because my front end weight even empty is 6800 N (yours is 6461 loaded and empty 6143= 10mm change standing).
That means if you go with shocks with out much gas as the Bilsteins you will loose almost 10mm in height and gain about 20mm with red springs which will only give you a lift of about half inch and even less(by 10mm) when empty .....I do not think is worth the money for a lift that little plus not needed in your case with the weight you got.
With your weights going to red brown combo all you would get is your present height empty loaded..........plus the rear will be a little taller ,now you are level.....anything taller will have geometry problems empty unless you do more mods.
If I was you I would install the 550s keep the rear Konis for now or replace them with MB rear 550s also and spend some money if you want to some 275-65-18 revo 2s(almost twenty pounds lighter) on your stock rims and enjoy a ride like a new 550 .... only look better........you know is an optical illusion ....same truck with more wheel gap versus less the more wheel well gap looks better and a taller truck....plus it handles like it should and all you loose is less than quarter inch height from your present tires and save lots of money but gain a way better ride.
If you want to run BFG kos for ever or heavy and as big as possible tires then red three stripe fronts with two stripe brown rear springs and 90s will be a great ride also and if it was my truck I would run something else in 275-70-18 for even more height ,traction and better fit on your rims or even better 16 inch rims(stiffer suspension softer tires)
One more option is custom Bilsteins ,I have that in my Rover and it works also...last two options are more of road oriented with options(better spring action and adjustability) but not necessarily much worse in comfort as the largest difference starts at the tire ....you built from there....
Mario
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ewalberg
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Past: San Francisco. Present: Germany
Vehicle(s): 2000 g500
Posts: 1887
| RE: SACHS HD vs Koni HT SPX on W46
Regarding your last line about custom bilsteins, don't forget that Fox is now making rebound adjustable shocks for the g-500 and one of the sellers (linked in elsewhere) will give you your first revalving (for compression damping adjustments) for free... that's pretty cool actually...
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thanito
Veteran
Date registered: Aug 2009
Location: Greece
Vehicle(s): MB G400CDI, MB 300E-24, Mini Cooper S
Posts: 253
| Re: SACHS HD vs Koni HT SPX on W46
I think that I may try the Fox ones, I will try to find how much they cost in Greece-a friend of mine is into motocross n stuff and he may know someone to get a discount.
The other option for me is the G550 shocks which are in fact 100euros/each cheaper than my stock G400CDi!!!
I also have some experience with the yellow KONIs from my MINI that are adjustable-probably rebound only, but the ride quality is SIGNIFICALLY better when in softer settings,so rebound only can make a difference in ride quality IMO.
Just my 2c
Cheers,
T |
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Otiswesty
Administrator
Date registered: Jun 2007
Location: Portland, Oregon
Vehicle(s): 463.241, 461.213
Posts: 3004
| RE: SACHS HD vs Koni HT SPX on W46
ewalberg - 7/13/2011 2:20 PM
Regarding your last line about custom bilsteins, don't forget that Fox is now making rebound adjustable shocks for the g-500 and one of the sellers (linked in elsewhere) will give you your first revalving (for compression damping adjustments) for free... that's pretty cool actually...
Are these the same as the external reservoir Fox shocks that 4x4club is selling?
http://fourbyfourclub.com/W463SuspensionParts/W463FoxKit.htm |
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512bbi
Expert
Date registered: Jan 2007
Location: North western US and Europe
Vehicle(s): 05G55kge,Range rover classic,clk55amg,ML 430
Posts: 1313
| RE: SACHS HD vs Koni HT SPX on W46
ewalberg - 7/13/2011 3:20 PM
Regarding your last line about custom bilsteins, don't forget that Fox is now making rebound adjustable shocks for the g-500 and one of the sellers (linked in elsewhere) will give you your first revalving (for compression damping adjustments) for free... that's pretty cool actually...
Erik
Does that mean they offer shocks with independent compression AND rebound adjustments?
There is also triple and quadruple adjustment potential in serious stuff for different frequencies in both compression and rebound( two adjustments for each stroke) and I am excluding height as in sports cars when they talk triple for compression extension and height.
No point for any of that on a G for us here.
Double adjustable shocks like you mention if reasonably prized with internal construction suitable to longevity for some decent miles of road would be very versatile.
Got a lead?
Specific specs of their forces range would be the way to go with out shooting in the dark to match your spring rates ,unsprung weight ,and personal handling characteristics tuning and or situations in different terrain would be awesome, but from what I know from the past units like this are too expensive and require service too often to be practical other than racing applications.
Koni provides specs for all their shocks of the self so if they match your application you can have them work cheaply and even rebuild when necessary.
Does any one know lengths(minimum and max) on the 4x4 club ones,shaft size and how do they control full extension when an axle drops to end of travel?
Also the adjustments on the photo look like they might effect either one way of the stroke and if together what is the percentage between compression to rebound, are they 50/50 shocks ?
If one softens a shock or go stiffer on any of their forces with out changing springs or unsprung weight the most one accomplishes is changing the feel on a single situation that is nothing more than going maybe on or off the proper setting for what the rest of your suspension is but not the best control for another situation
In racing in sports cars or any race vehicle shocks become tuning tools for best handling and is not for comfort but performance.
When the proper setting is achieved then the adjustments end and they stay put unless the course ,springs etc changes.
Lets have specs with ones specific application and suspension parts and then we got something to play with if we got shock specs also.
Manufacturers today will usually offer you the best tuning you can have when they built their vehicles for their specific use.
Of course be aware of the poser stuff that might do nothing more than have you turn knobs for play......My shocks are usually very dirty to look good on my trucks and all I care for is that they do the job for me with the least trouble.
Those by the four by four club sure got the looks,lets hear more about them they might be great stuff.
Nice to see new stuff offered for the G
Thanos
Post some leads please on what you find...I know you are great digging stuff up.
I have seen ORC having some very expensive ones that are probably still on their site but I could not get specs on them.
Suspension parts to me with out specs unless offered with the vehicle made by a reputable manufacturer are like a pig in a bag......
It is funny how many people I see every day riding around in cars lowered and such bouncing around ....but they look cool ......
Lots of after market kits for domestic vehicles on the other hand seem to be very good lately.
Mario
Edited by 512bbi 7/14/2011 3:33 AM
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ewalberg
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Past: San Francisco. Present: Germany
Vehicle(s): 2000 g500
Posts: 1887
| RE: SACHS HD vs Koni HT SPX on W46
Mario, how many times do i need to say they're single adjustable. u guys musta been on vacation when this thread hit:
http://www.pointedthree.com/disc/forums/showthread.php?tid=18366&mi...
here's the links below (copied from the above post) that list they'll take care of the first revalve for free.
http://www.offroadwarehouse.com/products/sfID1/12/sfID2/730/sfID3/1...
http://www.offroadwarehouse.com/products/sfID1/12/sfID2/730/sfID3/1...
To me, "rebuilding" means serviceable becuase they're worn out, "revalving" to me has always meant that you can send the shocks to them and they will adjust the shim stacks to change their behavior a bit. That is not an unusal practice that shock manufacturers will re-valve them for you, just not usually free. Considering it's a piggy back reservoir shock, it also means it's probably also pretty easy for them to make you a double adjustable version just by changing the can/piggy back... they will do custom shocks as far as i'm aware of, and they sell at least doubles for other markets if not triples too. Fox makes a lot of competition shocks for various offroading markets.
For the people i talk to about racing shocks, triple adjustable does not refer to height adjustment. It referes to rebound, low speed compression, and high speed compression... pehaps becuase lotus' uses coil-over shock design the assumption is that a single adjustable shock has rebound adjustment and ride height adjustment. double is rebound and compression (implying ride height adjustment). And triple offers both low and high speed compression adjustment in addition to rebound (ride height obviously adjustable there too).
There are several specs answered on this website below (again, also copied from original post), but i would suggest picking up a phone or sending an e-mail (TO FOX DIRECTLY) for more info.
http://www.polyperformance.com/shop/Fox-Mercedes-G500-2.0-Piggyback...
Edited by ewalberg 7/14/2011 3:03 PM
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512bbi
Expert
Date registered: Jan 2007
Location: North western US and Europe
Vehicle(s): 05G55kge,Range rover classic,clk55amg,ML 430
Posts: 1313
| RE: SACHS HD vs Koni HT SPX on W46
ewalberg - 7/14/2011 12:01 PM
Mario, how many times do i need to say they're single adjustable. u guys musta been on vacation when this thread hit:
http://www.pointedthree.com/disc/forums/showthread.php?tid=18366&mi...
here's the links below (copied from the above post ) that list they'll take care of the first revalve for free.
http://www.offroadwarehouse.com/products/sfID1/12/sfID2/730/sfID3/1...
http://www.offroadwarehouse.com/products/sfID1/12/sfID2/730/sfID3/1...
To me, "rebuilding" means serviceable becuase they're worn out, "revalving" to me has always meant that you can send the shocks to them and they will adjust the shim stacks to change their behavior a bit. That is not an unusal practice that shock manufacturers will re-valve them for you, just not usually free. Considering it's a piggy back reservoir shock, it also means it's probably also pretty easy for them to make you a double adjustable version just by changing the can/piggy back... they will do custom shocks as far as i'm aware of, and they sell at least doubles for other markets if not triples too. Fox makes a lot of competition shocks for various offroading markets.
For the people i talk to about racing shocks, triple adjustable does not refer to height adjustment. It referes to rebound, low speed compression, and high speed compression... pehaps becuase lotus' uses coil-over shock design the assumption is that a single adjustable shock has rebound adjustment and ride height adjustment. double is rebound and compression (implying ride height adjustment ). And triple offers both low and high speed compression adjustment in addition to rebound (ride height obviously adjustable there too ).
There are several specs answered on this website below (again, also copied from original post ), but i would suggest picking up a phone or sending an e-mail (TO FOX DIRECTLY ) for more info.
http://www.polyperformance.com/shop/Fox-Mercedes-G500-2.0-Piggyback...
What do you mean?
I am constantly on vacation.......
Mario |
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512bbi
Expert
Date registered: Jan 2007
Location: North western US and Europe
Vehicle(s): 05G55kge,Range rover classic,clk55amg,ML 430
Posts: 1313
| RE: SACHS HD vs Koni HT SPX on W46
This is funny.
Just talked to these guys about the fox shocks made for the G.
You have to use a strap to hold the axles at full droop ,the shock is not designed to be the stop for full extension of the G suspension.
It sounds too stupid to be true ....need to call the manufacturer of these.
If anyone knows anything about this please advice.
Mario |
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thanito
Veteran
Date registered: Aug 2009
Location: Greece
Vehicle(s): MB G400CDI, MB 300E-24, Mini Cooper S
Posts: 253
| RE: SACHS HD vs Koni HT SPX on W46
512bbi - 7/15/2011 3:19 AM
This is funny.
Just talked to these guys about the fox shocks made for the G.
You have to use a strap to hold the axles at full droop ,the shock is not designed to be the stop for full extension of the G suspension.
It sounds too stupid to be true ....need to call the manufacturer of these.
If anyone knows anything about this please advice.
Mario
Mario,
they probably mean this strap
http://www.orc.de/zeigebild.php?bild=/produkte/images/013-382-005-0...
Haven't talked so far with my friend, but will do tomorrow,
Thanos |
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dai
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
| Re: SACHS HD vs Koni HT SPX on W46
Straps are a good idea if the plan is to leave the ground with the G. Reinforcing the axles is too. We have seen a number photos of seriously bent up axles from Gs whose owners tried to make them fly. I don't understand the desire to catch big air in a G, there are other less expensive ways of doing this. But then, I don't understand trying to drown G's either.
http://www.doetsch-shocks.com/default.asp
This company makes some very nice shocks, and Dave G and others have had luck with them on the G. I am running a pair (front) on a Dodge Cummins work truck with great results. Lots of miles of very severe service and they are still doing a nice job. They have external reservoir options.
I'm still really happy with my Koni's other than the paint isn't perfect anymore...
-Dai
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prbmeat
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
| Re: SACHS HD vs Koni HT SPX on W46
dai - 7/14/2011 6:23 PM
Straps are a good idea if the plan is to leave the ground with the G. Reinforcing the axles is too. We have seen a number photos of seriously bent up axles from Gs whose owners tried to make them fly. I don't understand the desire to catch big air in a G, there are other less expensive ways of doing this. But then, I don't understand trying to drown G's either.
http://www.doetsch-shocks.com/default.asp
This company makes some very nice shocks, and Dave G and others have had luck with them on the G. I am running a pair (front ) on a Dodge Cummins work truck with great results. Lots of miles of very severe service and they are still doing a nice job. They have external reservoir options.
I'm still really happy with my Koni's other than the paint isn't perfect anymore...
-Dai
Koni's are going on this weekend or early next week after reading your threads (will I have problem sourcing them? - I haven't even looked yet). And when the money tree starts to bloom in the backyard I am going to install a front tow bumper ... 1 jump seat too. So much to do ... so little time. I hope all is well Dai.
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512bbi
Expert
Date registered: Jan 2007
Location: North western US and Europe
Vehicle(s): 05G55kge,Range rover classic,clk55amg,ML 430
Posts: 1313
| RE: SACHS HD vs Koni HT SPX on W46
thanito - 7/14/2011 6:47 PM
512bbi - 7/15/2011 3:19 AM
This is funny.
Just talked to these guys about the fox shocks made for the G.
You have to use a strap to hold the axles at full droop ,the shock is not designed to be the stop for full extension of the G suspension.
It sounds too stupid to be true ....need to call the manufacturer of these.
If anyone knows anything about this please advice.
Mario
Mario,
they probably mean this strap
http://www.orc.de/zeigebild.php?bild=/produkte/images/013-382-005-0...
Haven't talked so far with my friend, but will do tomorrow,
Thanos
So much confusion because since the after market industry does not have the expertise of the manufacturers.
When an engineer creates the specs for your Bilsteins with amg or mb they do not goof and they built what works.
Now here comes the aftermarket sourcing smart guys that can sell you the same brand name for less money while they make a decent profit........no problem .....except.......you are buying an inferior part not engineered for your application .......
You do not need to get airborne to need to control your axles at full droop .
If you do any of road travel that it will involve lifting a corner in the air while going slow you will be damaging all these shocks not made properly for your G.
Best to stay with stock parts or purchase only the ones that hold up because they are engineered to do the job.
I would never use a shock on any G that does not hold the full weight of the axles at full droop even if I never went of road.
Just lifting your vehicle for service on a lift you have your shocks holding everything at full droop.
So many people out there with spacers or taller springs ....they loose so much travel mostly at the rear on a G in extension .........which is already short on the G with out lifting......they could blow these silly after market shocks so easy.......
Mario |
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dai
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
| RE: SACHS HD vs Koni HT SPX on W46
I agree with what you say and the Konis are up to the task. They hold the axles at full droop and are strong enough for momentary lapses of judgement. They in fact have a little longer travel than the stock shocks on my machine and they are much better built. Much. Look at the shaft diameter difference and mount.
-Dai
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512bbi
Expert
Date registered: Jan 2007
Location: North western US and Europe
Vehicle(s): 05G55kge,Range rover classic,clk55amg,ML 430
Posts: 1313
| RE: SACHS HD vs Koni HT SPX on W46
I love the 90s they are almost two full inches extra long at front than the rear which made a huge difference in flex of road and in traction even with my thick amg roll bar!
The rear ones are slightly longer but not much over stock 500 shocks.
I have never driven on spxs and I wonder why Toms front shocks are both blown but not the rears.
I wonder if he is missing part of his bump stop helper springs or if he got extra long spxs for the 460?
The 90s have special valving that closes of on big impacts plus when the shock comes at the full extension.
Stock G shocks feel like they have rubber stops inside at full extension and amg on compression also.
When I asked Koni long ago I was told there is nothing in the spxs to hold unsprung weight and they had much lower compression dampening than the 90s.
At the front the 90s would be as comfy as the spxs but at the rear where the bump is felt more unless one is running heavy tires and wheels plus strong springs they will not be as comfy as the spxs
Mario |
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Redbull Addict
Veteran
Date registered: May 2006
Location: Morgan Hill, California USA
Vehicle(s): '12 G550
Posts: 171
| Re: SACHS HD vs Koni HT SPX on W46
Well, I have my new shocks in and it's a world of difference. I'm convinced that I must have received a bad batch of SPX's from the beginning. Even when I first put them on and both shocks were new, it didn't feel right. It's as if there was no high speed dampening compared to the new ones.
I'm a happy camper again! Thanks for all the help.
Edited by Redbull Addict 7/20/2011 10:27 PM
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dai
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
| Re: SACHS HD vs Koni HT SPX on W46
Redbull Addict - 7/20/2011 7:21 PM
Well, I have my new shocks in and it's a world of difference. I'm convinced that I must have received a bad batch of SPX's from the beginning. Even when I first put them on and both shocks were new, it didn't feel right. It's as if there was no high speed dampening compared to the new ones.
I'm a happy camper again! Thanks for all the help.
Tom, what did you get? Replacement Koni's? Stock shocks? I'm glad you have it right now.
-Dai |
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512bbi
Expert
Date registered: Jan 2007
Location: North western US and Europe
Vehicle(s): 05G55kge,Range rover classic,clk55amg,ML 430
Posts: 1313
| RE: SACHS HD vs Koni HT SPX on W46
Tom
Glad to hear you got it done.
New spxs?
No speed bump testing this time? 
Let us know how they do after a while.
Cheers
Mario |
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jeremyw
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Vehicle(s): '03 G500 O'erlanderwagen
Posts: 846
| RE: SACHS HD vs Koni HT SPX on W46
Regarding the remote reservoir Fox's, for $1200 that's actually not a bad price for what you get, although I'm a bit surprised if they're only rebound adjustable.
Yes, about double that of SPX's...but trick stuff and 7-way adjustable like Bilstein PSS9/10's(street coilovers for many German vehicles).
Also, comparatively, look at ORC's "special Bilstein's" at $212/ea, or their 8-way adjustable Bilstein's at $396/ea!
Edited by jeremyw 12/20/2011 1:02 AM
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jeremyw
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Vehicle(s): '03 G500 O'erlanderwagen
Posts: 846
| RE: SACHS HD vs Koni HT SPX on W46
Tom, did you get yours warrantied for free? You should have had a lifetime warranty to original purchaser. Most all Koni's and Bilstein's I've dealt with do.
Edited by jeremyw 12/20/2011 1:07 AM
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H1LM002G55
Expert
Date registered: Mar 2010
Location: S Florida / Geneva / Jeddah
Vehicle(s): 500 GE, G55, LM002, H1
Posts: 1796
| Re: SACHS HD vs Koni HT SPX on W46
Any updates on this? |
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