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dai
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
| Re: SACHS HD vs Koni HT SPX on W46
shakir,
I think the difference in the shocks are that the spx units are gas pressurized. Those were the only ones available to me when I bought mine. Sorry no data regarding those springs and shock adjustment. I installed mine with the factory (lowest) setting. I have some stout springs under my truck and the setting is fine. I regret that I didn't buy these when I bought the truck. The ride and control is now exactly what I want it to be.
-Dai |
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512bbi
Expert
Date registered: Jan 2007
Location: North western US and Europe
Vehicle(s): 05G55kge,Range rover classic,clk55amg,ML 430
Posts: 1313
| RE: SACHS HD vs Koni HT SPX on W46
shakir - 7/10/2010 8:18 AM
Has anyone got any experience in adjusting their KONI's ( 30 series versus spx series) with blue ORC springs ? My vehicle is a long wheelbase and I like to have a scientific explanation between the 30-1322, 301323 model versus the 8240 spx model.
Shakir
There is three different shocks for the G by Koni and they are all different.
The spxs and and the 30 series are gas shocks but they are quite different where th spx is a twin tube low gas pressure shock and the 30 series are montube(like Bilsteins) and usually higher pressure shock.
The 30 series can be custom build to long lengths and be adjustable both for bump and rebound.
It can also make a G steering damper........
The spx is an all around shock that is adjustable for rebound only and it will work best on Gs that do not do any serious off road use and ride on wheels and tires that are not too over sized so the unsprung weight stays close to stock.
Very comfortable shock for the G since the bump is low and the rebound can be adjusted to match your springs for best comfort ,control, and shock life.
I am not sure what vintage 30s and exact ones you have but I bet they are at least rebound adjustable.
There is also the 90 series which is a very large twin tube with out gas pressure ,originally designed for buses and heavy vehicles with a very large force variation in adjust ability of rebound too match heavy springs and much higher force in bump for higher unsprung weight and rough off road use.
Great shock for the G if you off road a lot but do not race since they are not gas pressurized.
When it comes to adjusting to your springs you have to be careful to adjust for best performance off road for the G for control and this is about where the best comfort will be in most situations.
If you adjust for pavement performance you will have a harsh ride on easy trails.
Orc has told me in the past their blue springs are the same spring rate at the front with MB reds and the same at the rear with MB rear reds only linear.
I run MB reds at front and MB brown rear with the 90s full soft at front and one and a half turns from full soft at rear.
If I had your rear springs I should be about three full half turns from full soft at rear.
If you get Koni to tell you what that measures at aprox and where that is with the 30 you have you will know where to set them at.
Good luck
Mario
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Indiana Drew
Expert
Date registered: Feb 2007
Location: Houston Tx
Vehicle(s): 2002 G500 LWB, 1980 280GE SWB (Sold), S500
Posts: 2223
| Re: SACHS HD vs Koni HT SPX on W46
My SWB has ORC springs and Bilstien shocks with Hutchinson wheels - I'd like to have the SPX on it. I like the way it pretty well though ...
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Redbull Addict
Veteran
Date registered: May 2006
Location: Morgan Hill, California USA
Vehicle(s): '12 G550
Posts: 171
| Re: SACHS HD vs Koni HT SPX on W46
This thread peeked my interest. My truck has 94K miles on it with the original shocks and I think its due for a new set.
I appreciate Mario's explanation between the different koni shocks. Mario, if you're reading this, when you say that a certain model is good for off-roading while another isn't - What type of off-roading are we talking about? Fast washboard roads with the occasional big hit or slow crawling with long extensions in travel with a fully loaded vehicle? I might just do the OEM shocks since I have some faith in MB engineers but if I can find something just as good for less or something noticeably better for just a touch more, I'd go for it.
Any further insight would be greatly appreciated. |
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dai
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
| Re: SACHS HD vs Koni HT SPX on W46
I think the spx shocks work very well for serious off road use. They function extremely well with my truck fully loaded, too. For a point of reference have a look at Amzimmy's posts about the Koni non-gas pressurized version he is running in severe service in SA. He seems to be very happy with them. I have very firm springs and these are a great match.
-Dai |
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512bbi
Expert
Date registered: Jan 2007
Location: North western US and Europe
Vehicle(s): 05G55kge,Range rover classic,clk55amg,ML 430
Posts: 1313
| Re: SACHS HD vs Koni HT SPX on W46
Redbull Addict - 7/11/2010 10:36 PM
This thread peeked my interest. My truck has 94K miles on it with the original shocks and I think its due for a new set.
I appreciate Mario's explanation between the different koni shocks. Mario, if you're reading this, when you say that a certain model is good for off-roading while another isn't - What type of off-roading are we talking about? Fast washboard roads with the occasional big hit or slow crawling with long extensions in travel with a fully loaded vehicle? I might just do the OEM shocks since I have some faith in MB engineers but if I can find something just as good for less or something noticeably better for just a touch more, I'd go for it.
Any further insight would be greatly appreciated.
They are all good for off roading ,depending on the amount of miles of road that you do in relation to pavement.
Personally I never seen Bilsteins hold up in vehicles I use off road for the majority of miles.
The stock shocks on my G were gone at hardly 30k and the 90 series so far have shown no changes at over 10k.
Not on the G but from other Rover owners I have been told the 90s hold up much more than the spxs in frequent of road use but I know the spxs are a great shock ,ride great and they should last as much as any stock Bilstein.
Time will tell on the G as the miles pile up on the 90s ....so far they are great and I like the extra travel and flex I got from them also.
Negatives on the 90s are the expense and rougher ride due to their stronger settings in bump.
The spxs should be the best for most G owners.
Mario |
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Marcus Frost
Member
Date registered: Mar 2010
Location: Chicago, IL
Vehicle(s): 2009 G55 AMG
Posts: 17
| Re: SACHS HD vs Koni HT SPX on W46
Mario,
So now that we have flushed out the shock discussion, you've opened another can of worms with spring choices and "trimpackers". You've mentioned MB Red and MB Brown, and it seems there are 3 different sizes for trim packers.
I've narrowed down, based on what has been said, my list of options to the Koni SPXs but the spring choice seems to go back and forth from the ORCs to the stock MB Reds Front and Rear or possibly Reds up front with Browns in the rear. Then there was also a discussion about the MB Aux springs as well as the smaller cilastios, which you seem to indicate should be left in stock sizes?
If I am going to take apart the suspension on the G I feel it would probably be worthwhile to do shocks AND new springs, even if they are just to replace the ones I have now. My G is coming up to 30k and I'm not sure it's worthwhile leaving currently worn items in place?
-m |
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sps
Veteran
Date registered: Oct 2007
Location: "G" is in the DC area
Vehicle(s): 2000 G500 Cabriolet plus others
Posts: 236
| Re: SACHS HD vs Koni HT SPX on W46
I have to echo Dai's statement. I think the issue may be speed off-road. I recall something about Mario liking to blast at high speed down washboards.
For my off-road use the SPX's have been superb. Very smooth wheel movement without either the lurching side-to-side the Bilsteins gave me or the wallowing the M-B Sachs shocks gave me. My off-road is normally farm land and construction sites. No hard-core rock climbing or high speed rally style.
While my G doesn't wear very stiff springs, they are slightly longer than originally installed (still M-B springs). The tire/wheel combo is heavy and tall. The wheels are the 16" ashtaroths and the tires are 33.5" diameter weighing approximately 60#. Fully loaded, albeit the Cabrio doesn't hold too much, or empty, the ride on roads is the most sedan-like I've been able to achieve. As I said this is third set of shocks I've tried.
At 65+ speeds on a stretch of really bad concrete (combination of large joints, uneven surface, small pot holes, etc.) I often drive down, I can feel the suspension really working, and can imagine that at some point it would be useful stiffen the shocks a little. I just haven't found it necessary.
As for trim-packers, several people advised against them. My rear was lower than my front and I wanted to even it up. Instead I just replaced the rear springs with the same model bearing one more stripe. Problem solved.
Everything on my G has been M-B brand, except for these shocks. I won't go back.
While I haven't worn out a set of Bilsteins, two of my M-B Sachs shocks developed leaks in the couple years I had them. Sometimes "factory" isn't better.
Good luck. |
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sps
Veteran
Date registered: Oct 2007
Location: "G" is in the DC area
Vehicle(s): 2000 G500 Cabriolet plus others
Posts: 236
| Re: SACHS HD vs Koni HT SPX on W46
Thinking about this more, I remember how hard it was for me to decide. So.... with airfare so cheap, if any registered member of the site who currently owns a G wants to fly to the DC area (where the G is kept), they are welcome to take it for a drive. |
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512bbi
Expert
Date registered: Jan 2007
Location: North western US and Europe
Vehicle(s): 05G55kge,Range rover classic,clk55amg,ML 430
Posts: 1313
| Re: SACHS HD vs Koni HT SPX on W46
Marcus
The front reds are good and no one says they are not.....I love mine.
Orc are the same at front like red MB.
When it comes to the rear lots of members here make the mistake of going to very stiff rear springs and that will give you a bad ride and also an unbalanced combo for good handling.
By now I can tell you I would never use stiffer than brown rears even loaded on a long wheel base G and even yellow orange would be a great combo with front reds.
White rears are tail happy balance and rear reds are a nothing bad funny.
I have spend tons of time on this and I am sure that the red fronts give sharp handling with comfort.
The rear brown is the stiffest rears I can see anyone using and when it comes to shocks nothing beats the front end with reds and 90 konis.
Rear spxs could make the rear as comfy as possible and proper in combination since they have less compression forces than 90s but enough rebound adjustment to match any spring
The front 90s with extra bump are very right for a better ride and better handling.
I do not rally off road but I like a comfy control ride with handling on the G55k.......the engine and brakes even with 285-65-18s demands more handling on the k both on and of road in my opinion.
I went through the same experience on other vehicles including my Rover where all want stiff rear springs and they do not work for comfort or flex off road .......mine with 200 pound springs both front and rear and 235-85-16s with rear roll bar out ride like a sporty sedan and does the same of road with the right shocks.
I can give you a tip you can do if you order the 90s build them custom so you can install the stock amg shock cilastios or others to make your 55k great of road while the same no body roll ride on pavement as stock with out a sacrifice in comfort as stock
Pm me if interested for details on how to order the 90s a little custom
I would not change springs unless you want more clearance they do not wear out like shocks.
Mario
Edited by 512bbi 7/19/2010 1:18 AM
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Hippot
Member
Date registered: Mar 2010
Location: Netherlands/ UAE
Vehicle(s): '83 300GD (T) Volvo XC90 Volvo S60
Posts: 11
| Re: SACHS HD vs Koni HT SPX on W46
Hi All,
I just ordered a full set koni SPX and aftermarket ( suplex) springs. Red front , White rear. To be honest I wanted to go with Yellow Orange rear but all recommendations I got was for the white springs in back.
I will let you know how it worked out. |
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Redbull Addict
Veteran
Date registered: May 2006
Location: Morgan Hill, California USA
Vehicle(s): '12 G550
Posts: 171
| Help!! Not what I expected....
Hello Gents,
So I finally decided on the SPXs and had my local shop do the install. My truck is a '02 LWB with BFG ATs in a 285/65/18 E rating.
On small imperfections or manhole covers the ride is noticeably softer and smoother. However when I hit a speed bump at over 10 mph or train tracks the impact is worse than the stock shocks with 95K miles. There is something seriously not right. The rear feel fine.
Unless the shop messed with the settings the fronts were set to the lowest/softest setting. So my question is, will increasing the rebound improve this situation?
Another question I have is how can I adjust the shock? I recall reading somewhere that I'll need to undo the shock in order to adjust it. Was there a special tool to make the adjustment? The boxes were left at the shop and they might have thrown them out, so I might be out of luck if there was something in there that I needed.
Thanks in advance!
Tom
Edited by Redbull Addict 8/13/2010 1:21 AM
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512bbi
Expert
Date registered: Jan 2007
Location: North western US and Europe
Vehicle(s): 05G55kge,Range rover classic,clk55amg,ML 430
Posts: 1313
| RE: Help!! Not what I expected....
Redbull Addict - 8/12/2010 11:17 PM
Hello Gents,
So I finally decided on the SPXs and had my local shop do the install. My truck is a '02 LWB with BFG ATs in a 285/65/18 E rating.
On small imperfections or manhole covers the ride is noticeably softer and smoother. However when I hit a speed bump at over 10 mph or train tracks the impact is worse than the stock shocks with 95K miles. There is something seriously not right. The rear feel fine.
Unless the shop messed with the settings the fronts were set to the lowest/softest setting. So my question is, will increasing the rebound improve this situation?
Another question I have is how can I adjust the shock? I recall reading somewhere that I'll need to undo the shock in order to adjust it. Was there a special tool to make the adjustment? The boxes were left at the shop and they might have thrown them out, so I might be out of luck if there was something in there that I needed.
Thanks in advance!
Tom
Tom
In what way is the impacts at speed bumps worse?
Impact harshness in compression can not be bad with spxs since they are soft.
Did they install the shock bushings properly?
How much psi do you have in your tires?
Extension (rebound) force on your shocks is easily adjustable by disconnecting them at the axle and turning them left (counter clock wise ) while compressed slowly until you feel the foot valve engage and then keep on turning left till they stop for the softest setting and turn clock wise (to the right) for stiffer settings.
After you turn to the desire setting you extent the shock to disengage from adjusting the foot valve and now they can spin in either direction with out stopping as they do when adjusting.
They can do three and a quarter full turns(360 degrees times three plus) when adjusting and the change in force when set is significant for every half turn(180 degrees)
One full turn from full soft at the front only should be enough for your springs.
The extension settings can never make speed bumps harsh in compression since your adjustments can only effect the speed the spring has when extending after compression of the speed bump.
Tire pressures can effect the shocks in compression also and increasing your tire pressure a little some times can improve the ride.
I used to run your tires and I recall running between 28 to 32 psi on pavement.
With my new revo 2s I run 37 psi on pavement with a very smooth comfy ride with 90 series shocks and stiffer springs than yours(red,brown rear)
I am suspicious of faulty bushing installation for your bad ride
Mario
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Redbull Addict
Veteran
Date registered: May 2006
Location: Morgan Hill, California USA
Vehicle(s): '12 G550
Posts: 171
| RE: SACHS HD vs Koni HT SPX on W46
Hi Mario,
Thanks for responding!
Hopefully I'm adding the picture properly. (edit - I'm using Safari and my first attempt didn't work) Here's the url -http://gallery.me.com/redbull_addict#100104/IMG_1172&bgcolor=black if I remember correctly the original bushings had the metal washers on both sides not just on one end, hopefully I'm either mistaken or its not an issue. My tire pressure is 31lbs cold. It's a bit tough for me to explain the sensation I feel. There are two types of speed bumps in my complex and the ride feels different over both of them. The smaller 9 inch width and 2-3 inch high speed bump causes a much harsher impact on the truck. The rear seems to absorb it better. On the larger but more gradual speed bump that is 4 inches tall but has a gradual rise and is 36 inches wide there is a strong initial impact on the rise and then when I come down the rebound seems a bit slow. My concern is when I go on my next offroad trip (in 2 weeks) hitting a rock at speed or driving at 35-50 mpg on washboard roads. My impression is that if the suspension isn't soaking up these speed bumps well, it's not going to do well on the trip. |
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Redbull Addict
Veteran
Date registered: May 2006
Location: Morgan Hill, California USA
Vehicle(s): '12 G550
Posts: 171
| RE: Help!! Not what I expected....
Just another quick update.
I attempted to increase the rebound last night. The drivers side shock only had a rotation of two and a half. I set it for one full turn from full soft. The shock was fairly stiff to compress and would expand if pressure wasn't applied to keep it compressed. On the passengers side the shock seemed a little softer to compress fully and it wouldn't expand on it's own. It would just stay compressed. The other odd thing was that it wouldn't go into the setup mode. It just spun around even though we had it fully compressed. Sucks!  |
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dai
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
| Re: SACHS HD vs Koni HT SPX on W46
Tom, I think you have a defective shock.
-Dai |
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512bbi
Expert
Date registered: Jan 2007
Location: North western US and Europe
Vehicle(s): 05G55kge,Range rover classic,clk55amg,ML 430
Posts: 1313
| RE: Help!! Not what I expected....
Redbull Addict - 8/15/2010 12:24 PM
Just another quick update.
I attempted to increase the rebound last night. The drivers side shock only had a rotation of two and a half. I set it for one full turn from full soft. The shock was fairly stiff to compress and would expand if pressure wasn't applied to keep it compressed. On the passengers side the shock seemed a little softer to compress fully and it wouldn't expand on it's own. It would just stay compressed. The other odd thing was that it wouldn't go into the setup mode. It just spun around even though we had it fully compressed. Sucks! :confuzed:
I think Dai is correct
If I remember right the spxs must have very low gas pressure so Dai can probably recall how much pressure does it take to keep one compressed at any point of its travel?
Bilsteins have so much pressure that they change the height of the suspension a quarter of an inch.
My 90s do not have that problem ...no gas whatsoever....easy to take the screws of the bottom and adjust since there is no pressure ....the shock stays where you place it so adjusting and installation is very fast and easy.
I just did two hundred miles of wash board mostly the last two days at one hundred degree weather and I never felt a change at any point.
I would recommend the 90s to any one with a G regardless if they only drive on pavement most of the time or of road mostly since they seem to hold up with what I do and I never had the same happen on the same trails with other shocks for the same money or less.
Mario |
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Redbull Addict
Veteran
Date registered: May 2006
Location: Morgan Hill, California USA
Vehicle(s): '12 G550
Posts: 171
| RE: Help!! Not what I expected....
Well I'm not having much luck with getting a refund or replacement so.....
Where can I order the 90s in the proper size, etc? |
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kerry460
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: tasmania australia
Vehicle(s): 1984 300GD LWB WAGEN
Posts: 611
| RE: SACHS HD vs Koni HT SPX on W46
G,,day some konis have a small bump stop on the shaft , it is hidden from view by the stone guard shield.
it can be pushed down and out through the holes in the top of stone guard,using 2 pieces of stiff wire.
once out it allows the shock to fully compress to engage the adjuster,
kerry |
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512bbi
Expert
Date registered: Jan 2007
Location: North western US and Europe
Vehicle(s): 05G55kge,Range rover classic,clk55amg,ML 430
Posts: 1313
| RE: Help!! Not what I expected....
Redbull Addict - 8/16/2010 11:41 PM
Well I'm not having much luck with getting a refund or replacement so.....
Where can I order the 90s in the proper size, etc?
Tom
That is no fun.
Does the top rock shield come of on spxs or is it welded in place?
Regardless if the shock does not extend on its own you should be able to adjust it like the other one.
If there is a bump stop in there stopping you why did it not happen on the one you adjusted?
Front shocks for 90s is 90-5383 for an 02 G500.
Koni of North America (ITT) can order them for you from Holland since their dealers do not stock them.
If you get 90s for the front and your front trailling arm bushings have lost a lot of their height you might need to shim the front shocks with a small washer if they look like they touch when installed.
Upon compression and extension they get more clearance so you only need to look at them when sitting with the tires on the ground and shocks installed.
It might be a lot cheaper to ship spxs to ITT round trip(at their custom shop) and ask them to check them for you on a dyno before your trip since they are new.......I know their quality control in Holland is much better than this.......very strange to have a bad shock new!
Mario |
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