|
BigTom
New user
Date registered: Apr 2012
Location: UK
Vehicle(s): 460 280 w/ 606a
Posts: 3
| Best 460 Engine/Transmission Set-up
Hi Guys, I'm new to the site and G ownership, plus not terribly technically minded, but I recently purchasing a '87 LWB 280GE to use as the basis for an overland travel truck in a year or so. Hope you guys can confirm a few detail and give your opinions on the 606a engine conversion I'm currently having done at a UK specialist.
I’m planning this vehicle to be as electric free as possible so have a new fuel pump made up from 2 older diesel pumps re-configured with 6mm elements to mate with the 606a from the E300TD. I understand this engine is very reliable powering taxi's the world over. It can be tuned to silly numbers but for my purposes we’re looking to have the pump set to un-stressful 185bhp. It will also sport a new larger exhaust. I intend staying with a 4 speed auto box from the later 463 (722.394!). We will be retaining the existing diffs (4.8:1) and axle's etc. I know that some Spanish enthusiasts and probably many others of you have this combo but the big question is, how will this set-up perform on highway, occasional off-road, fully laden, etc? I understand the ratios can be helped by changing tyre sizes but what would be the optimum tyre size for this set-up and any other suggestions?
My car's VIN is WDB46023327054241. I don’t know the original spec and hope someone can find out some details for me. I’m assuming it came with the standard axels, diffs and gearbox for the model year.
Thanks
|
|
| |
|
DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
Posts: 9963
| RE: Best 460 Engine/Transmission Set-up
BigTom - 10/8/2012 2:56 PM
My car's VIN is WDB46023327054241. I don’t know the original spec and hope someone can find out some details for me. I’m assuming it came with the standard axels, diffs and gearbox for the model year.
Thanks
Your original Vehicle Data Card is attached below.
Attachments
----------------
 VehicleDataCard.pdf (8KB - 44 downloads)
|
|
| |
|
Loki Laufeyjarson
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: 66°N, 19°W
Vehicle(s):
| RE: Best 460 Engine/Transmission Set-up
A 180 Hp diesel engine mounted to a trans with 1/1 top gear, 1/1 high range and 1/4,88 diffs needs VERY big tires for comfortable highway gearing.
Check the gearing of w463 with similar engine. I guess it has overdrive tranny, overdrive high range and a higher r/p ratio. |
|
| |
|
bram_r
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2007
Location: the Netherlands
Vehicle(s): 1984 MB 280GE, 1982 MB 300GD, 1986 Subaru XT 4WD
Posts: 1659
| Re: Best 460 Engine/Transmission Set-up
The W461 290gdt with the 120hp om602dela and auto (4th gear being 1:1) has got axles with 3.72 ratio.
I can check at a later time hoe many revs it does with 235/85 r16 tires. We have such a car at work.
I've posted some specs on my converted 280ge with the om602 + auto and 4.88 axles and 255/85 r16 at tires.
Search for om602 conversion! |
|
| |
|
AlanMcR
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, CA, Los Altos
Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL
Posts: 3500
| RE: Best 460 Engine/Transmission Set-up
Loki Laufeyjarson - 10/8/2012 1:28 PM A 180 Hp diesel engine mounted to a trans with 1/1 top gear, 1/1 high range and 1/4,88 diffs needs VERY big tires for comfortable highway gearing. Check the gearing of w463 with similar engine. I guess it has overdrive tranny, overdrive high range and a higher r/p ratio. The 96 G300DT OM606 has 0.86 in the transmission, 1:1.15 in the transfer case with a 4.875 diffs. With ~31" tires this gives you roughly 2600rpm at 65mph. This RPM is just what the engine likes.
|
|
| |
|
Johnny Christensen
Veteran
Date registered: Sep 2010
Location: Denmark
Vehicle(s): GD290 W461
Posts: 202
| RE: Best 460 Engine/Transmission Set-up
Like the others, the gearing would be my primary concern. You will have a very impressive pulling power, but limited driving comfort when doing highway speed. Your fuel economy would be rather poor.
One thing that could change the picture in a more favorable direction, would be replacing the desire for a 4 speed autobox with a 5 speed manual gearbox, 5th gear being overdrive
Additional to the 5 speed box, putting at least 33 inch tires on, to help keeping the engine rpm in a useful and comfortable range.
Manual 5 speed gearbox from the original G range, that will tolerate the high torque from a 606a is not really to be recommended. Instead you need to look at Sprinter boxes, 5 speed or 6 speed, they are build for higher torque. That turns it into more of a fabrication project, with all the joys and challenges. It can be done, but if you are paying for somebody else to do the work...it could be a bit on the expensive side.
The G is a very nice vehicle for overland travel. But to alter the factory setup, is a bit more involved. The various engines that were offered have their own characteristic’s that was matched with the transmissions. Older style gasoline engines in general have their useful rpm range higher up, which means a different gearing than the comparable diesel model. Thus it is only in the later years that overdrive autoboxes became a standard in the G.
My vehicle is with the same purpose as yours, build for overland travel. Simple, no electrics to keep me from going. My axle gearing is pretty much the same as yours, 34/7 = 4.857.
I have altered slightly from the factory setup, in that I have a SsangYong OM662LA engine. It's a 120 hp with 250nm of torque, trustworthy stone age technology.
I'm currently debating if I want to change tires from 31 inch to 33 inch. If I had more torque (like you will have from the OM606a) there would be no debate, the larger tires would be fitted ASAP.
If I had more torque... then I would need to look at a replacement of my current manual 5 speed Getrag 717.439.
Apparently there is no such thing, as a free lunch.
|
|
| |
|
darcyocker
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2008
Location: Cape Town South Africa
Vehicle(s): 1994 W463 G300 Diesel; 1981 W123 300D
Posts: 138
| RE: Best 460 Engine/Transmission Set-up
Another thing to consider is the VG150 transfer box. I believe it is rated for 1500Nm while the older 460 VG80 transfer box is only rated for 800Nm. Which will yours have?
I have a '94 463 OM603 normally aspirated with the same autobox you mention. My car revs quite high at highway speeds 130km/h = +/-4000rpm. The motor makes 83kW and 191Nm (new). I run 31" tyres and have 4.88 diffs.
I think you should look at a sprinter box and a 463 transfer case minimum and watch your 1st low pedal articulation.
Mercedes never made a 5sp auto without electronics (as far as I know). You can get an after market module to control the MB 722 5sp autos.
One thing to consider is that W460 front wheel bearings can be weak (they last about 100k km under "normal" conditions). So if you run fat tires make sure you keep and eye on them. Better to go tall and skinny but that is a debate on its own... Whatever you choose make sure it is a tyre size that is common where you plan to overland I guess.
The stock om606a makes 330Nm yours sounds like it will be making more? I have thought this would be quite a nice conversion to do to my car someday... I would be interested to know how your mechanic plans to do the turbo plumbing to get past the steering on the RHD?
Edited by darcyocker 10/9/2012 4:16 AM
|
|
| |
|
Loki Laufeyjarson
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: 66°N, 19°W
Vehicle(s):
| RE: Best 460 Engine/Transmission Set-up
darcyocker - 10/9/2012 8:01 AM Another thing to consider is the VG150 transfer box.
That TC rotates front prop shaft in opposite direction  and according to an old thread: 350 GDTurbo/G350Turbodiesel, G320, 500 GE, G300Turbodiesel: High/low are 0.87/2.158 respectively.
That gives gear reduction in highest gear 0,86x0,87x4,9 = 3,7
-You need 40" tires to match that gearing with your intended setup.
Edited by Loki Laufeyjarson 10/9/2012 6:36 AM
|
|
| |
|
darcyocker
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2008
Location: Cape Town South Africa
Vehicle(s): 1994 W463 G300 Diesel; 1981 W123 300D
Posts: 138
| RE: Best 460 Engine/Transmission Set-up
Loki Laufeyjarson - 10/9/2012 6:18 AM
darcyocker - 10/9/2012 8:01 AM Another thing to consider is the VG150 transfer box.
That TC rotates front prop shaft in opposite direction
: )
I always forget that! My bad. Still that motor and the VG80?
Perhaps look at a SSanyong 290TD rather and the G 4sp auto. It is a tried and tested option...
Or how about a 463 front axle? One of the early narrow track options? Can that "bolt on" to the 460 chassis?
Edited by darcyocker 10/9/2012 7:33 AM
Attachments
----------------
WDB46023327054241.pdf (18KB - 9 downloads)
|
|
| |
|
Boy G
Expert
Date registered: Feb 2007
Location: Bushveld, South Africa
Vehicle(s): Diesel G's: 617A and 602
Posts: 1683
| Re: Best 460 Engine/Transmission Set-up
I would guess your question would get as many opinions as there are contributors here. Mine is hardly scientific but based on much fiddling. If you want uncomplicated overland ability and a bit more power and economy then I would suggest staying away from complicated conversions.
I would not use any G 5 speed manual box. There are many stories of them breaking in the bush down here esp. with more powerful engines and bigger wheels.
That is a nice engine you are planning - I would do all the cooling tricks on it. The standard transfer case is fine IMO. The standard diffs are also fine for the use you describe but I would use tall tyres to affect the gearing and set my brain to 110km/hr. Bear in mind that not all auto gearboxes can be tow started if your starter goes west.
I would guess the perfect diffs for it would be the 4.11 that came out in the 290 turbo / auto box. but they are not common.
Good luck |
|
| |
|
Fernando BR
Date registered: Jan 2007
Location: Brasil
Vehicle(s): G500/05 300GE/91 300GD/80
| Re: Best 460 Engine/Transmission Set-up
Think the top engine that can be used on a 460 with a complete reliable project is the 602DELA. Keep in mind it overheats sometimes and it uses not the best IP in the world.
Edited by Fernando BR 10/10/2012 7:33 AM
|
|
| |
|
autonovice
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Dec 2006
Location: New York City
Vehicle(s): '05 G55K, '92 350GDT
Posts: 684
| Re: Best 460 Engine/Transmission Set-up
MB diesels are happy around 2600 - 3000 rpm.
Average highway speed is 65mph. I prefer 75mph.
Tires: 33in
Engine: OM602a (250TD or 290TD), OM603a (300TD and not 350TD), OM605a or OM606a
Transmission: 711.117, 711.113, 711.660
Axles: 4.88 w/ 711.117-113 trans, rpm 2603 @65mph
......... 4.88 w/ 711.660 trans, rpm 2819 @65mph
Axles: 5.286 w/ 711.117-113 trans, rpm 2603 @65mph
......... 5.286 w/ 711.660 trans, rpm 2509 @65mph
My preference is 35in tires w/ OM606a, 5.286 axles and 711.660 trans
= 2562rpm @65mph or = 2957rpm @75rpm which is my normal speed!!!
No I have not try this but OM606a should have enough power and torque to drive
the large tires easily. 711.660 has 5.453 ratio in 1st gear and .777 in 6th gear so
good for off-roading and highway driving combo.
|
|
| |
|
autonovice
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Dec 2006
Location: New York City
Vehicle(s): '05 G55K, '92 350GDT
Posts: 684
| Re: Best 460 Engine/Transmission Set-up
autonovice - 10/10/2012 10:51 AM
Axles: 4.88 w/ 711.117-113 trans, rpm 2603 @65mph
......... 4.88 w/ 711.660 trans, rpm 2819 @65mph
Axles: 5.286 w/ 711.117-113 trans, rpm 2603 @65mph
......... 5.286 w/ 711.660 trans, rpm 2509 @65mph
typos ... corrected now!
Axles: 4.88 w/ 711.117-113 trans, rpm 2603 @65mph
......... 4.88 w/ 711.660 trans, rpm 2509 @65mph
Axles: 5.286 w/ 711.117-113 trans, rpm 2819 @65mph
......... 5.286 w/ 711.660 trans, rpm 2718 @65mph
|
|
| |
|
BigTom
New user
Date registered: Apr 2012
Location: UK
Vehicle(s): 460 280 w/ 606a
Posts: 3
| RE: Best 460 Engine/Transmission Set-up
Hi Guys,
Thanks for all your responses, opinions, information and experiences. I'm firmly in the G minefield now, if only I had the technical know how to understand it all, and deep pockets to implement the suggestions!
Anyway, first off, thanks for the VIN decode Dutch.
From what's been said, a 5sp auto mated to the 606a would be a nice combo, but MB don't make a non electric 5sp auto so that's out. darcocker did suggest that you could get an aftermarket module to control the 722 5sp box, it that correct and does it actually work with minimal electrical input? That seems to leave manual 5 or 6 speed transmissions from the Sprinters which involve major fabrication and expense to install.
On balance, taking the cost (I'm farming out the conversion), reliability and simplicity, where possible I think I'll stick to the original specs to start with, and make changes later when the truck is on the road. Everybody agrees the 606a is a great engine and will sit wonderfully in the G. Maybe taking the engine from it's stock of 177bhp to 185bhp will have an adverse effect on the rest of the components so I'll firstly try running it in stock trim. I'm encouraged that 'some' feel the standard case and diffs should work well enough, especially if I increase tyre size. What would be the best size of tyre to use for allround satisfaction, given I'll be using existing components, but with 177bhp and 330nm on hand? I was thinking 255/85/r16, too big, wide, tall?
Thanks again guys |
|
| |
|
Johnny Christensen
Veteran
Date registered: Sep 2010
Location: Denmark
Vehicle(s): GD290 W461
Posts: 202
| RE: Best 460 Engine/Transmission Set-up
BigTom - 10/12/2012 6:28 PM
I was thinking 255/85/r16, too big, wide, tall?
That size would be my preference for a overlanding vehicle. The downside is that there is a limited selection of manufactures and you may have difficulty finding a replacement in the middle of Africa. So bringing a spare wheel as well as a spare tire, could be the solution.
Edited by Johnny Christensen 10/13/2012 1:23 AM
|
|
| |
|
bram_r
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2007
Location: the Netherlands
Vehicle(s): 1984 MB 280GE, 1982 MB 300GD, 1986 Subaru XT 4WD
Posts: 1659
| Re: Best 460 Engine/Transmission Set-up
your engine bay will be a little bit more crowded with an om606a.
Try some searching on previous projects how it all works out.
Alternatives are of course om603a (6 cyl., 3 liter, W124), om602dela, om662 (Ssang Yong) or of course om617a.
For overlanding I would use an engine tranny combo that is pretty close to stock or at least put together with original parts.
gr. Bram |
|
| |
|
olasdeplata
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: Sep 2006
Location: At the Beach in Hatteras
Vehicle(s): 280GE convertible 84, 300E 89
Posts: 396
| Re: Best 460 Engine/Transmission Set-up
Hi there
Can one of the experts validate what axle ratio I need for a 606 conversion and 31-33 tires if I want to keep the current AT?
Edited by olasdeplata 10/23/2014 10:10 AM
 (460 Data Card.png)
Attachments
----------------
460 Data Card.png (37KB - 0 downloads)
|
|
| |
|
4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| Re: Best 460 Engine/Transmission Set-up
what is "current AT"? |
|
| |
|
Brent
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: SW Colorado USA
Vehicle(s): '13 Wolfsburg GTI
Posts: 1754
| Re: Best 460 Engine/Transmission Set-up
4x4abc - 10/23/2014 12:40 PM
what is "current AT"?
AT = Automatic Transmission |
|
| |
|
WEBIII
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: Oct 2010
Location: Inlet Beach, FL
Vehicle(s): 461.318, 463.241
Posts: 315
| Re: Best 460 Engine/Transmission Set-up
Isn't the starter for a 606 on the wrong side for a 720 transmission?
Edit: I think I've seen someone on superturbodiesel who modified a 720-style trans to bolt to a 606.
Edited by WEBIII 10/23/2014 4:05 PM
|
|
| |
