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460 front drive shaft - no zirc
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Posted 3/31/2014 1:25 AM
Gilamonster
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Date registered: Sep 2013
Location: New Mexico
Vehicle(s): G #1 (mix of a 460, 461 & 463), #2 is a 2000 G500
Posts: 151
100
460 front drive shaft - no zirc

Greetings,

This is my first post. Burquedoka recommended I join. He said this is the place to be regarding G-wagen mechanics.

Last summer I purchased the infamous Europa camper and have been enjoying the heck out of it - my first G and my first camper. It runs like a fine tuned beast and I've been driving all over the dirt roads of New Mexico. It has almost 18k miles on it now. I've sorted out all of its camper related issues, done major maintenance and have been steadily refining the build. You can see tons of pics over at Expedition Portal "purchased an expedition g-wagen".

I have a couple of questions that I would appreciate any feedback on.

First, the front drive shaft doesn't have any zircs. Where the zirc is normally found it has a bolt with a long tapering heavy needle type thing on it. How does one go about properly greasing this shaft?

Second, the original bilstein shocks are starting to get a bit soft on the top over the last 1k miles.. The vehicle weighs about 6900 fully loaded. It has the ORC springs, front/rear sway bar set up and I drive about 80% on dirt roads. Koni heavy tracks, Fox and King shocks have been recommended. Will the 2 1/2" diameter shocks fit on the 460 (it has a 463 body and a 461 engine)? Would the remote reservoir units offer much benefit/lifespan/reliability? They are expensive. Does the tunability of the dial type remote shocks really work. I'm looking for a smooth, controlled ride.

I'm hesitant to go with a standard G shock due to the weight of the vehicle (mainly on the rear) and I'd like to avoid a pricey mistake.

Thanks for any thoughts/input.

William
#220974
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Posted 3/31/2014 6:22 AM
DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
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RE: 460 front drive shaft - no zirc

Welcome! A photo of that bolt with the needle would be very helpful in trying to determine what it is.

Several folks have fitted the Koni shocks, and they are adjustable for firmness. On standard G's, most seem to set them on the softest or close to it setting.

Happy Trails!
#220978 - in reply to #220974
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Posted 3/31/2014 12:20 PM
TCao



Date registered: Jul 2008
Location: San Diego CA
Vehicle(s): 2002 G500
50
RE: 460 front drive shaft - no zirc

Gilamonster - 3/30/2014 10:25 PM Greetings, This is my first post. Burquedoka recommended I join. He said this is the place to be regarding G-wagen mechanics. Last summer I purchased the infamous Europa camper and have been enjoying the heck out of it - my first G and my first camper. It runs like a fine tuned beast and I've been driving all over the dirt roads of New Mexico. It has almost 18k miles on it now. I've sorted out all of its camper related issues, done major maintenance and have been steadily refining the build. You can see tons of pics over at Expedition Portal "purchased an expedition g-wagen". I have a couple of questions that I would appreciate any feedback on. First, the front drive shaft doesn't have any zircs. Where the zirc is normally found it has a bolt with a long tapering heavy needle type thing on it. How does one go about properly greasing this shaft? Second, the original bilstein shocks are starting to get a bit soft on the top over the last 1k miles.. The vehicle weighs about 6900 fully loaded. It has the ORC springs, front/rear sway bar set up and I drive about 80% on dirt roads. Koni heavy tracks, Fox and King shocks have been recommended. Will the 2 1/2" diameter shocks fit on the 460 (it has a 463 body and a 461 engine)? Would the remote reservoir units offer much benefit/lifespan/reliability? They are expensive. Does the tunability of the dial type remote shocks really work. I'm looking for a smooth, controlled ride. I'm hesitant to go with a standard G shock due to the weight of the vehicle (mainly on the rear) and I'd like to avoid a pricey mistake. Thanks for any thoughts/input. William

Welcome aboard, William. Glad to see you signed up here. The G-Class DIY Forum has lots of informative threads on maintenance by G-AMG and this one is on lubrication of the propeller shafts: http://www.pointedthree.com/disc/forums/showthread.php?tid=11829&am... Hopefully that will be useful to you. You can also change the current grease fitting (bolt with a long tapering heavy needle type thing on it) to a more common type (McMaster Carr is a good source for zerk replacement if you can't find them locally). As Dutch mentioned, posting a photo of the fitting will help us identify what you currently have. I gave my opinion on shocks over Expedition Portal so no need to repost here.

#220981 - in reply to #220974
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Posted 4/1/2014 1:01 AM
Gilamonster
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Date registered: Sep 2013
Location: New Mexico
Vehicle(s): G #1 (mix of a 460, 461 & 463), #2 is a 2000 G500
Posts: 151
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RE: 460 front drive shaft - no zirc

Thanks Dutch and TCao.

I'll get some pics of the front shaft tomorrow.

I took G-ronimo to town today and while I was there I weighed it at our new fancy dump on the new fancy scale. The ladies were cool and let me do front, rear and total weight without having any garbage - no charge. My last weigh in was for total weight at a scrap yard on a rough looking contraption like scale. Interestingly, both scales read the same - sometimes contraptions work!

Total weight with full water tank, fuel tanks and gear - 6900lbs.

Rear - 3700lbs.

Front - 3200lbs.

I'm surprised as that seems pretty well balanced front to rear. I'm not sure how important that balance is but I could improve it a bit by carrying the winch on the front receiver hitch instead of the rear.

I'm also not sure how that compares to a stock G with bumpers, winches and gear and I'm not sure how it important it would be in shock choice. Any input on how much I should be concerned with the extra weight would be appreciated.

I have a good lead on who I can call to discuss King shocks for a G. Does anybody have a recommendation for a good Koni shock service provider?

Thanks again.

William

#220994 - in reply to #220974
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Posted 4/1/2014 1:48 AM
AlanMcR
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Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, CA, Los Altos
Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL
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RE: 460 front drive shaft - no zirc

Might want to look into whatever shock and spring combinations are found on the armored versions.
#220996 - in reply to #220974
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Posted 4/1/2014 7:27 AM
thairish



Date registered: Jun 2006
Location: hk/th
Vehicle(s): 461: 230ge/swb & g300cdi/lwb
300
RE: 460 front drive shaft - no zirc

Do your drive shafts look like these?



(CIMG6639.JPG)



Attachments
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Attachments CIMG6639.JPG (281KB - 0 downloads)
#221001 - in reply to #220974
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Posted 4/1/2014 7:36 AM
thairish



Date registered: Jun 2006
Location: hk/th
Vehicle(s): 461: 230ge/swb & g300cdi/lwb
300
RE: 460 front drive shaft - no zirc

Sachs HD shocks, as fitted to the W461s hold up very well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1fNwKYPX5ws

The shocks with reservoirs may not fit the heavier payload rated W461s fitted with the rear sway bar.
#221003 - in reply to #220974
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Posted 4/1/2014 3:48 PM
hipine



Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
5000
RE: 460 front drive shaft - no zirc

I'm 100% certain that Koni Heavy Track will give you what you need. Strictly speaking, the shocks aren't there to control the vehicle, they're there to control the axle. So the GVW isn't much of a factor for the shock choice. Use springs and sway bars to control the body. That said, as Dutch related, I use the Heavy Tracks on my G that is pushing 6000 lbs loaded, I use them just barely off of full soft to get the rough track ride I like. Most of my driving is on road commuting 40 miles a day in teh mountains SW of Denver. They handle that perfectly well on the same settings I prefer for rough dirt (bonus is easy soaking up of speed bumps!).

They are also used to great effect and with huge longevity by friends who's primary use is african safari and Aussi outback travel. They ride and hold up better than either Bilstein or factory Sachs shocks. Granted, it takes some time to remove the shocks to re-set the damping to something different as you search for your preferred setting, but at least having the option you know you CAN make it right for your individual use, not just stuck with what you buy or forced to send back to factory for re-valve.

I'm glad somebody's finally enjoying that thing. I've been seeing it in one shop or flatbed or another off and on for 10 years. Good that it's finally being used in anger.

All the best,

-Dave G.
#221015 - in reply to #220974
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Posted 4/1/2014 10:48 PM
Gilamonster
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Date registered: Sep 2013
Location: New Mexico
Vehicle(s): G #1 (mix of a 460, 461 & 463), #2 is a 2000 G500
Posts: 151
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RE: 460 front drive shaft - no zirc

Thairish,

They don't quite look like that.

On mine the shaft from the transfer case to the rear axle (longest) is larger in diameter than the long shaft in your photo. It has the normal zircs.

My front most shaft ( transfer case to front diff) is smaller in diameter than the ones in your pics. This is the one with the needle zircs.

I have attached a couple of photos; one front and one rear. I didn't include a pic of the one from the tranny to the transfer case as it is covered by the center skid plate and I didn't have time to take it off for a pic.







(G front shaft.jpg)



(G rear shaft.jpg)



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Attachments G front shaft.jpg (74KB - 0 downloads)
Attachments G rear shaft.jpg (46KB - 0 downloads)
#221027 - in reply to #221001
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Posted 4/1/2014 11:01 PM
Gilamonster
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Date registered: Sep 2013
Location: New Mexico
Vehicle(s): G #1 (mix of a 460, 461 & 463), #2 is a 2000 G500
Posts: 151
100
RE: 460 front drive shaft - no zirc

Sorry I see I didn't rotate the photos. Next time.

On the front shaft pic you will see what looks like a small bolt head on the shaft - at 6 o'clock in the middle of the pic. This is the weird grease fitting. There are two more just like it on this shaft. Since posting this thread I did a bit more research and found that it is a nut with a small hole in the center (mine was covered in dirt). I need to get the special heavy needle type adapter for my grease gun and evidently that will allow me to get the grease in.

That brings up another question. Do I need to get a specific size needle adaptor to fit this (metric)? I do already have a needle adapter - the type you can stick thru a rubber boot, but this one is different.

Thanks,

William
#221029 - in reply to #220974
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Posted 4/1/2014 11:40 PM
Gilamonster
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Date registered: Sep 2013
Location: New Mexico
Vehicle(s): G #1 (mix of a 460, 461 & 463), #2 is a 2000 G500
Posts: 151
100
RE: 460 front drive shaft - no zirc

Hipine,

Thanks. I didn't know that about the shock controlling the axle vs the vehicle. Very interesting.

Very good to know regarding the Koni's. I like longevity and a good all around feel. I'll call them tomorrow to get a feel.

I called a recommended King Shock retailer today and they asked for shock length measurements for when the suspension is compressed, sitting level and fully extended. They said that due to the ORC springs and sway bar the specs might be different than OEM shocks/vehicle. Makes sense. They also said that their OEM shocks might not be the best match due to the extra 1K lbs but that they can change the shims//valving accordingly. Like you mentioned, I would hate to have to go thru the "live with it or send it back/re-valve thing".

That brings up a question. I was in the new Santa Fe Mercedes dealership shop a while back and there was a sweet G from Pagosa Springs area that had "limiting straps" attached from the axle to the frame. What is the deal with that?

I also got lucky to find Marc Beyer is still in Santa Fe. He is the mechanic Europa imported from Germany and knows this vehicle (G's in general) like the back of his hand. I've been using him for maintenance and stuff I am not yet comfortable with.

As to the vehicle overall, I feel super fortunate to have found it. It isn't as elegant as many builds I've seen but they sure put a lot of thought into the mechanics and ergonomics. It is built heavy duty. It would have cost me sooo much more to have done it from scratch; Dave H put a ton of $$$ and thought into it. All it needed was a little attention to the final details. Also, I think it sat around and aged (un-used) for a long time during the build and with the last owner and as such needed appropriate service and maintenance and sorting out a few details. I've been working aggressively on that, in between trips. In January I made it from my place in Santa Fe to the AZ border in SW New Mexico (and back) on less than 100 miles of pavement. Saw some great country and hit roads I've been thinking about for years. I've done 3 other 1K mile mostly dirt trips in it since December. The engine seems to be getting stronger and smoother. I love using it!

Thanks again for your input.

William

#221031 - in reply to #221015
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Posted 4/1/2014 11:49 PM
Gilamonster
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Date registered: Sep 2013
Location: New Mexico
Vehicle(s): G #1 (mix of a 460, 461 & 463), #2 is a 2000 G500
Posts: 151
100
RE: 460 front drive shaft - no zirc

Thanks,

I've heard mention that the heavy military G's use Fox shocks. I read lots of reviews that their customer service is marginal and sometimes non-existent, but once properly tuned (revalved) most are happy with them.

I know that reviews are often hearsay, but I'd like to avoid having to deal with the claimed problems. On the other hand, Koni and King users generally rave about service and performance.

William
#221032 - in reply to #220996
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Posted 4/2/2014 6:44 AM
DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
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RE: 460 front drive shaft - no zirc

If the arrow marks the "needle zirk" you're talking about, it takes a cone shaped tip which should be available on the internet. See here:

http://www.saeproducts.com/grease-fitting-coupler.html?wtx=GAW&gcli...

The QCC-NNS model is what I use. Does the job perfectly.

and here:

http://www.saeproducts.com/how-quick-connects-work.html



(G.jpg)



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Attachments G.jpg (33KB - 0 downloads)
#221045 - in reply to #221027
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Posted 4/2/2014 6:54 AM
DUTCH
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RE: 460 front drive shaft - no zirc

Gilamonster - 4/1/2014 11:01 PM

Sorry I see I didn't rotate the photos. Next time.

On the front shaft pic you will see what looks like a small bolt head on the shaft - at 6 o'clock in the middle of the pic. This is the weird grease fitting. There are two more just like it on this shaft. Since posting this thread I did a bit more research and found that it is a nut with a small hole in the center (mine was covered in dirt). I need to get the special heavy needle type adapter for my grease gun and evidently that will allow me to get the grease in.

That brings up another question. Do I need to get a specific size needle adaptor to fit this (metric)? I do already have a needle adapter - the type you can stick thru a rubber boot, but this one is different.

Thanks,

William


See my response to your message with the photos. It answers your questions.

http://pointedthree.com/disc/forums/showthread.php?tid=21496&mid=22...

There is a tiny spring loaded ball at the bottom of that cone. The cone shaped (DO NOT use a needle!!) grease gun tip depresses that ball to allow grease into the joint. When you pull back on the cone, the ball reseats to prevent grease loss. Do be sure to clean away the dirt before pressing the grease gun tip in there.
#221046 - in reply to #221029
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Posted 4/2/2014 7:05 AM
Titus Pullo
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Date registered: May 2007
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RE: 460 front drive shaft - no zirc

so  yes, you have grease fittings - those bolt shaped things are actually grease zircs. they look like the ones on the bottom shaft on thairish pictures.

My front shaft has the same ones. 

#221047 - in reply to #220974
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Posted 4/2/2014 10:24 AM
512bbi
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Date registered: Jan 2007
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RE: 460 front drive shaft - no zirc

Gilamonster - 4/1/2014 9:40 PM

Hipine,

Thanks. I didn't know that about the shock controlling the axle vs the vehicle. Very interesting.

Very good to know regarding the Koni's. I like longevity and a good all around feel. I'll call them tomorrow to get a feel.

I called a recommended King Shock retailer today and they asked for shock length measurements for when the suspension is compressed, sitting level and fully extended. They said that due to the ORC springs and sway bar the specs might be different than OEM shocks/vehicle. Makes sense. They also said that their OEM shocks might not be the best match due to the extra 1K lbs but that they can change the shims//valving accordingly. Like you mentioned, I would hate to have to go thru the "live with it or send it back/re-valve thing".

That brings up a question. I was in the new Santa Fe Mercedes dealership shop a while back and there was a sweet G from Pagosa Springs area that had "limiting straps" attached from the axle to the frame. What is the deal with that?

I also got lucky to find Marc Beyer is still in Santa Fe. He is the mechanic Europa imported from Germany and knows this vehicle (G's in general) like the back of his hand. I've been using him for maintenance and stuff I am not yet comfortable with.

As to the vehicle overall, I feel super fortunate to have found it. It isn't as elegant as many builds I've seen but they sure put a lot of thought into the mechanics and ergonomics. It is built heavy duty. It would have cost me sooo much more to have done it from scratch; Dave H put a ton of $$$ and thought into it. All it needed was a little attention to the final details. Also, I think it sat around and aged (un-used) for a long time during the build and with the last owner and as such needed appropriate service and maintenance and sorting out a few details. I've been working aggressively on that, in between trips. In January I made it from my place in Santa Fe to the AZ border in SW New Mexico (and back) on less than 100 miles of pavement. Saw some great country and hit roads I've been thinking about for years. I've done 3 other 1K mile mostly dirt trips in it since December. The engine seems to be getting stronger and smoother. I love using it!

Thanks again for your input.

William



William

You can address all your concerns with some koni 90s
They are not gas shocks but they are very heavy duty double tube shocks that will control your springs better and for much longer time than anything else you can buy for the same money.
Most important of all you do not need any silly axle straps with the 90 series konis as they control the axles at full droop and they will not brake or malfunction regardless of how much and how often you might take your suspension at full droop.
Another feature they have that you need is the fact that you can adjust them to your springs very easily after initial installation because they are not pressurized and they so easy to work with where you can adjust one axle at a time in minutes if needed,by disconnecting the shocks from the bottom end only.........no fighting them while you adjust because they stay where you place them (no pressure).
No worries about them fading out either as your weight and slow spring frequencies will never become a problem not being gas pressurized.
I have them on my G55k for much longer than they should have been there and they handle like new still with heavy springs and very spirited of road driving for many years and I can tell you they have outperformed more than one set of stock shocks under the same conditions by a huge margin.
With the weights you are carrying I would not recommend hanging weight outside your axles but as much as possible low and between the axles.
Springs other than the ORCs ,like heavier spring rate MB springs would give you a better more controlled ride and they would work fine with koni 90 series shocks.
Also heavy load MB rear helper springs would be a good idea also.
If you end up getting 90 konis make sure your helper springs are stock MB either regular(black rubber) or longer heavy duty (yellow much bigger and longer) so your suspension minimum length remains stock, so you do not run a chance to damage the 90s since they are a little longer than stock in max length but the same as stock in min length.

Mario
#221052 - in reply to #221031
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Posted 4/2/2014 10:45 AM
Gilamonster
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Date registered: Sep 2013
Location: New Mexico
Vehicle(s): G #1 (mix of a 460, 461 & 463), #2 is a 2000 G500
Posts: 151
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RE: 460 front drive shaft - no zirc

Dutch,

Exactly. Thanks. I'm glad I asked.

I'll order it today.

I wonder why they use the different types of zircs on just the front drive shaft. Could it be that the lower profile helps in the balancing of the shaft?

William
#221053 - in reply to #221045
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Posted 4/2/2014 11:43 AM
512bbi
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RE: 460 front drive shaft - no zirc

William

I have been thinking how much fun your camper G must be.

Please post some photos.

I also was thinking that your front end is only 70 pounds heavier than my G which I have seen a huge improvement when I went from red to white springs.
The fact that yours is a camper and a lot heavier at the rear and overall, makes me think that stronger springs could give you a lot of improvement controlling the whole vehicle,and the ability to go more places more safely in comfort.
The ORC springs are the same rate as red MB three stripe at the front.
The whites are very comfy but much stronger with this weight at the front offering more control.
I also looked at the rear and if left and right corners are close to similar at the rear, you are running about 8200 hundred Nm load per corner back there which is almost of the chart on the old regular rear spring rate chart.
I do not know anything about the rear ORC springs but I have heard that they are the same as MB reds but linear at the rear and I have no clue if your ORCs back there operate with the same amount of live coils as the MBs would be at the MB length of about 255mm with your weight. (look at MB chart on red rear springs at your weight 7116.8NM front and 8228 rear ).
The progressive effect is all gone with this weight with MB so if all else is the same (amount of coils and thickness) then you have now what would be a good MB spring choice for the rear
The MB reds with about 255 length at your weight at the rear would be a perfect match with three stripe white front MBs.
One way to know if the rear is as it would be with MB reds is to see how level the vehicle is now or not.
If you look at the charts ORC being the same as MB at front is should be over an inch lower than the rear so if your G is sitting like this now (220mm at front and 255 at rear) then only a front spring change would be best or none if you like the ride and control.
My two cents on your concerns with weight overall
For front springs of Haralds site

http://www.rubicon-trail.com/G-Class/img/Vorderfedern.gif

Rear

http://www.rubicon-trail.com/G-Class/img/rearsprings.gif


Mario


Edited by 512bbi 4/2/2014 11:50 AM
#221055 - in reply to #220974
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Posted 4/2/2014 1:43 PM
DUTCH
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RE: 460 front drive shaft - no zirc

Gilamonster - 4/2/2014 10:45 AM

I wonder why they use the different types of zircs on just the front drive shaft. Could it be that the lower profile helps in the balancing of the shaft?

William


There's that; but even more important is the low profile has less tendency to snag and wrap something around the shaft when off-road
#221056 - in reply to #221053
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Posted 4/2/2014 3:18 PM
bram_r
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Re: 460 front drive shaft - no zirc

You can address all your concerns with some koni 90s


Do you mean Koni Raid by this?

If you're looking for one of the better performing, direct fit shocks for heavy duty use, take a look at the Koni Raid, these are the HD version of the Heavy Track.
As Hipine says, the Heavy Track will cover most users needs, but I guess if you're doing some high speed, long distance off roading, the Raid will be sure outperform the Heavy Track.

gr. Bram
#221059 - in reply to #220974
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