|
benzmac16v
Member
Date registered: Feb 2014
Location: Colorado, USA
Vehicle(s): 1980 300GD SWB, 1985 190E 2.3-16v
Posts: 8
| Early W460 Engine Mounts
Hello,
I have recently purchased my first G, its a 1980 300GD SWB. Cosmetically it is in a sad state of repair, mechanically its here and there. Most of the drive line has been rebuilt/replace with rebuilt stuff.
However, its the naturally aspirated variant of the 617 diesel engine. Given that I also live at altitude (~1Mile), the G really lacks power. Its fine for basic commuting (though really needs a 5th gear) but bringing it into the mountains would be a struggle. I would end up being unable to adequately keep up with traffic and cause problems for everyone else on the road.
So I am starting to looking into engine swaps with a turbo being a requirement. This leaves pretty much 5 engines to pick from. A turbo 617, 602, 3.0/3.5 603 (the rod bender!) and the 606. Obviously, the 606 would be ideal, but given that this chassis is the early style, it apparently has the early style engine mounts. This is the first issue I would need to plan out. I would assume that any 617 would bolt right up with no issues, making it the easiest but also least rewarding (from a power perspective) swap.
Would the engine mount arms I have bolt up to any of the other engines and yield a properly aligned/positioned engine? A 602 is still a 5cyl, could the engine mount arms from the 617 be used? If I wanted to move to a 6cyl I presume I would be cutting and welding custom mounts to the frame (please let me know if I am wrong!) so that I could use the 'new' style engine mounts and properly position the engine. My issue there is that it most likely requires some very precise placement of the new mounts on the frame. This would be the most challenging part for me, and I would prefer to avoid it.
I know there are plenty of other issues in doing a swap (transmissions being the next big thing for me to fine) but I would like to keep it focused on the engine mounts so I can narrow it down to a specific engine that I want, then work out the rest.
Thanks,
Jim |
|
| |
|
DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
Posts: 9963
| RE: Early W460 Engine Mounts
Jim, The best guy to talk to is your neighbor, Dave, aka "hipine" here. |
|
| |
|
Titus Pullo
Elite Veteran
Date registered: May 2007
Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada
Vehicle(s): '90 Wolf 240GD, '06 G270 CDI.
Posts: 1010
| Re: Early W460 Engine Mounts
616/617 and 602/603 engine mount arms (brackets) are NOT interchangeable. You have to cut and fab the frame mount anyway as you have the early stile round rubber engine mounts, you will need to move to the newer stile engine mounts. |
|
| |
|
benzmac16v
Member
Date registered: Feb 2014
Location: Colorado, USA
Vehicle(s): 1980 300GD SWB, 1985 190E 2.3-16v
Posts: 8
| Re: Early W460 Engine Mounts
Thanks for the quick replies. The early style mounts were my main concern. I was hoping to get around cutting up and welding on the frame as welding is not a strong point of mine.
I may just start looking for a 617'a' for the time being. If the work is the same (or close to it) for a 603 vs 606 then I think it would be best to wait for a good looking 606 to come around. 617a s are way more common around here and could be shoe horned in without much of an issue. At a minimum the turbo would ease the pain of being at 5280ft. It will still have the issue of being at 3500-4000RPM while cruising. Maybe I'll get lucky and find a donor with a 5spd...
Thanks,
Jim |
|
| |
|
w.james
Veteran
Date registered: Jun 2006
Location: New Jersey
Vehicle(s): 84 280 GE 617A 5sp getrag
Posts: 239
| Re: Early W460 Engine Mounts
Had to buy my 5sp from england, pretty rare in the US. As for the 617a, it just fall in. the exhaust is bigger but it will work, and there is no issue unless you are a serious rock climber, then you might have an issue with the oil pan. This much easier than fabricating engine mount and worring that the rest of the drive train will fail under the increased horse power.
Anyway good luck with it
W |
|
| |
|
Suppatime
Member
Date registered: Aug 2012
Location:
Vehicle(s): 1980 300GD OM606 / 717.4xx Custom, 2003 C32 AMG
Posts: 35
| Re: Early W460 Engine Mounts
The alternative to ditching the circular engine mounts for the "V" shaped newer ones is custom-making brackets for the new engine of your choice. This does complicate things quite a bit, but then you can get the angle of your new engine perfect with some trial and error.
You're basically my truck brother on P3.. 1980 300GD SWB with the non-turbo 617. Great little tractor motor, but I'm about 500 feet above sea level... can't imagine how little power that tired old engine would have at altitude.
Your easiest swap would be sourcing an OM617A and the 5-speed. Everything there is bolt-in, and you can reuse your engine brackets.
I'm not that smart, so I'm opting for the OM606DT LA and the early overdrive W463 Getrag 5-speed. |
|
| |
|
hipine
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
| RE: Early W460 Engine Mounts
I have a 617A here that's surplus to my needs. Not a "great" motor, but may be good for you if you're not certain you'll stay with the 617A. This is a 950 motor that I used when I first changed my m110 to a 617A in the LWB. The motor was running fine when I pulled it, it's just a little tired. I could use the space so it's yours for $350 as is if you come and get it. I drove it with a 4 speed for 6 months no problem before I got my 5 speed. Just stay off the interstates.
-Dave G. |
|
| |
|
benzmac16v
Member
Date registered: Feb 2014
Location: Colorado, USA
Vehicle(s): 1980 300GD SWB, 1985 190E 2.3-16v
Posts: 8
| Re: Early W460 Engine Mounts
Suppatme, let me know how that swap goes. Getting everything welded in just right is what scares me. But in my mind, that's the perfect setup. The stock 617 isn't actually that bad... After you get used to it... And avoid hills..
Dave, I may be interested. Does the engine have blow by? I'm leaning towards just sticking with an easy 617a swap and focusing my time and money on the body and other issues. I plan to rebuild any 617a I pick up. If tired just means a new chain , head work, seals I'm probably good with it. Pistons or cyl damage id have to think about.
My truck has 32in tires so it can actually get on the highway... It can run at a decent speed but it still stays in the slow lane. Which I wouldn't expect a 617a to change much, but more get up and go would be great. The larger tires take a lot out of the low end.
Jim |
|
| |
|
hipine
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
| Re: Early W460 Engine Mounts
benzmac16v - 7/7/2014 9:53 PM
...Does the engine have blow by? ....
...I plan to rebuild any 617a I pick up...
...If tired just means a new chain , head work, seals I'm probably good with it.
...Pistons or cyl damage id have to think about...
Blowby? Of course it does. There are no 30 year old motors that don't.
A real rebuild on a 617A is $6k doing all the work yourself (done that) and yes it includes pistons, rings, liners, etc. Timing chains, seals, and head work are maintenance items, not rebuild.
I thought you were looking to drop in a good running 617A in your truck to try out without a pile of time and money in it in case you decide that's not the way to go. If you're ready to take the plunge into committing to a full rebuild of a 617A out of the blocks, that's a little different. This motor could be a platform for either route. But the last thing I want is you regretting a decision or feeling something was misrepresented. I'd rather it gather dust than entertain any possibility of that outcome. The offer is there and is what it is. No urgency, it's not going anywhere. Whatever you decide, good luck in getting the truck set up the way you like it. It's a long but very rewarding road.
All the best,
-Dave G. |
|
| |
|
benzmac16v
Member
Date registered: Feb 2014
Location: Colorado, USA
Vehicle(s): 1980 300GD SWB, 1985 190E 2.3-16v
Posts: 8
| Re: Early W460 Engine Mounts
My plans are not set. Not doing some head work, chains and easy to reach bearings while the engine is out would just seem wrong. Low hanging fruit. Mercedes, at least in the 190E world, has absurd pricing on pistons, rings and the like. Can't see that being worth it. Re sleeving would also be a bit much at this point.
I don't believe you misrepresented anything, Your definition of a rebuild is just slightly different than mine... I will keep you posted, thanks for the offer.
Jim |
|
| |
|
hipine
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
| Re: Early W460 Engine Mounts
Cool. Like I said, just give a shout if you're interested. And best of luck.
-Dave G. |
|
| |
|
Suppatime
Member
Date registered: Aug 2012
Location:
Vehicle(s): 1980 300GD OM606 / 717.4xx Custom, 2003 C32 AMG
Posts: 35
| Re: Early W460 Engine Mounts
benzmac16v - 7/7/2014 8:53 PM
Suppatme, let me know how that swap goes. Getting everything welded in just right is what scares me. But in my mind, that's the perfect setup. The stock 617 isn't actually that bad... After you get used to it... And avoid hills..
I'll be doing a write-up on ClubG about it... but it's still a few months off. I have some rust to take care of first... fixing the chassis and body before paint. Once that's situated, then it's time to dig into the engine/trans swap. |
|
| |
|
Nazrat
Veteran
Date registered: Jun 2009
Location: Northern VA
Vehicle(s): 1994 G320 Europa Import for sale, 2003 G500
Posts: 200
| Re: Early W460 Engine Mounts
The 617a is as-said, the easiest. One thing to watch out for: the later 617a as found in some US cars were not bored for a pilot bearing. The one I swapped in was not and I had to use a brake-hone to open up the cast hole in the back of the crank to accept the bearing. It wasn't a big problem, but it did slow down the install of the transmission quite a bit while I looked for a solution.
-Tad |
|
| |
|
hipine
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
| Re: Early W460 Engine Mounts
Yep. Had to do that on the '85 motor I rebuilt. I took the easier (for me) way out and just ground the OD of the bearing to a light press. I have a spare motor that's a factory crate motor. I haven't checked that one yet. Would be interesting to know what they did with them. The difference wasn't much, just as if they roughed it in but didn't bother with the finishing cut.
-Dave G.
Original post
http://www.pointedthree.com/disc/forums/showthread.php?tid=14974&po...
Edited by hipine 7/12/2014 6:11 PM
|
|
| |
