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gerryvz
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2014
Location: Annapolis, MD
Vehicle(s): 1994 G320, 1989 560SEC, 1994 E500 (W124)
Posts: 336
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Hey Floob,
Do you have a progress report? I'm interested to hear how it's coming along...
Cheers,
Gerry |
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AlanMcR
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, CA, Los Altos
Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL
Posts: 3500
| RE: Where there's smoke, there's fire . . .
I don't remember mine even having one turned up tab. I recall bending a fairly standard ring expander and then grinding some slots into it such that it got a grip on the tails of the ring. (very fuzzy memory here) It may be that the ring has to expand so far that the tabs would run into the CV body on either side. Either way, I think MB would prefer that you buy another one. Given that it has no play, it is up to you to thwart their money grubbing ways :-).
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DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
Posts: 9963
| RE: Where there's smoke, there's fire . . .
It looks from your picture like you have the CV joint separated from the hub and bearings. If so, there's no need to remove the circlip and half axle from the CV joint to replace the boot. Just slide it on over the half axle. Been there and done that.
The bigger question is where is that busted off tab? Is it in the joint?
Also, if I remember correctly, that circlip needs to be expanded rather than compressed in order to remove the half axle. If so, the missing tab is pretty much superfluous - other than making sure it's not lodged somewhere in the joint. |
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AlanMcR
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, CA, Los Altos
Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL
Posts: 3500
| RE: Where there's smoke, there's fire . . .
The CV is still in the hub. You can see the red in the background. The tab does not appear to be broken off, I don't think there ever was a tab. The desire is to fully clean out the joint, which is a reasonable goal. The correct ring expander will get him there. I do remember a frustrating hour or two before getting it apart.
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chris505
Date registered: May 2007
Location: San Francisco
Vehicle(s): '79 280E/'80 280GE/'00 G500
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Hello Floobydust.
Looking great, thankfully you figured out how to get to that CV boot without loosening hub nuts.
Your cv joint clip looks perfect to me, nothing broken there.
MBZ wants you to think its impossible to remove that clip and just purchase a new axle from them. However, with the correct tools the CV should come apart in seconds. I do it all the time, but I have lots of practice and an entire shop setup for G axle rebuilding. The CV can be re-greased and a new boot fit without touching the clip though.
The real trick is removing one of the newly manufactured CV joints from its axle shaft, the new CV joints being made have no provision for clip removal!!! Gotta somehow pop it off in a press or cut it off I guess.
I'll try to attach a pic of the new "non removable" CV:
The only advice I can offer you on your quest for vibes is to stop suspecting the front/rear axle (not ever a cause of G vibes unless wheel bearings/pinion bearings are TOTALLY trashed, and start suspecting the one thing that causes 90% of all G vibes...
The tire balance!!!
I had to go through more than 6 tire shops before I found one that actually had a balancing machine calibrated precisely enough to get my tires truly down to zero.
My brother has been to 4 different shops and even bought a whole new set of tires for his '02 at the last shop and still had serious vibes, one imaginative yet ineffective tire shop told him his axle was the cause of the vibes (diff bearings?!?!?) until I took matters into my own hands and just swapped my rims/tires on his G and made him go for a drive. Solved, No more vibes.
He is still driving on his bumpy tires, still trying to get them balanced. I guess all the tire shops down in San Diego can't care for or properly calibrate their Hunter RF balancing machines, they are just making his vibes worse. Poor guy.
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michel bertin
Veteran
Date registered: Jun 2006
Location: SFO Bay Area, CA
Vehicle(s): '02 G500, '14 G550
Posts: 124
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
+1 on first getting very good tire balancing when chasing vibrations.
I actually get mine done at my MB maintenance shop, Park Avenue Motors, in Palo Alto. They have a Hunter machine, calibrated, and well trained technicians. I had it done on several sets of 32" and 33" A/T tires 265/75R16, 285/75R16 and 275/65R18. Road Force Balance with rim /tire matching; the result is a beautifully smooth ride. This, followed by a wheel alignment allows to take my hands off the steering wheel for 10 seconds at 65mph and the G will fully stay in its lane and not sway by more than 1.5ft right of left (ans my G's are 9-12 yrs old and ~100K mi). |
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Thank you everyone for your replies! Even though the boot can be replaced without removing the axle (or the axle nut), I would really like to inspect the CV joint races and clean it out completely while I have everything out. I did make a mistake on the snap ring - I was thinking it was an "innie" which would require two tabs in order to compress, but I see now that it is an "outie" so the one tab and the blunt end are just fine. I can expand the ring quite nicely, but the axle won't budge. It has been my experience in previous situations like this that this means either the snap ring is still hanging up just a bit or the axle splines are stuck. I tend to think the later because tapping or pushing on the end of the axle does not cause the snap ring to "bind up" as one might expect if the axle was moving freely. But I'm not totally sure. How common is it for the axle splines to stick and require some grunt to get out even after the snap ring is released?
I agree about tires being a big cause of vibration, but I am more suspect here because the vibration is torque sensitive - it changes on acceleration/deceleration, and in fact, one can "feather" the throttle to make it disappear. It also has a "thrum" or "howl" component to it. These characteristics are very atypical for tire issues (in my experience) and more indicative of excessive mechanical play somewhere. The items I have replaced so far as part of "the chase" for the vibration have all been things that would need replacing anyway (short drive shaft, tie rod ends, fluids change, and this broken CV boot). Once I finish the CV replacement (if it doesn't finish me), I plan to have the truck re-aligned and the tires re-road force balanced and we'll see where things stand with the vibration. At that point I will be out of "things that need replacing" and edging closer to "things to throw money and time at".
Thanks again!
- FD
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DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
Posts: 9963
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Floobydust - 8/19/2014 6:18 PM
Thank you everyone for your replies! Even though the boot can be replaced without removing the axle (or the axle nut), I would really like to inspect the CV joint races and clean it out completely while I have everything out. I did make a mistake on the snap ring - I was thinking it was an "innie" which would require two tabs in order to compress, but I see now that it is an "outie" so the one tab and the blunt end are just fine. I can expand the ring quite nicely, but the axle won't budge. It has been my experience in previous situations like this that this means either the snap ring is still hanging up just a bit or the axle splines are stuck. I tend to think the later because tapping or pushing on the end of the axle does not cause the snap ring to "bind up" as one might expect if the axle was moving freely. But I'm not totally sure. How common is it for the axle splines to stick and require some grunt to get out even after the snap ring is released?
- FD
Very common. |
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| Well, the work is done, but the vibration continues . . .
I have completed the following in order to try and diagnose the vibration/rumbling/thrumming that occurs at a road speed of approximately 58 – 62 MPH (the vibration is torque sensitive in that changing from acceleration to deceleration affects it. Sometimes it is possible to "feather" the throttle so as to make the vibration disappear).
I replaced the homekinetic shaft with a new genuine MB shaft per the WIS and the W463 service and repair manual. The vibration remained after replacement. Note: the new MB shaft did not have the "green marking dots" per the WIS, so I oriented the shaft clamps in the same orientation as the original shaft.
I found CV joint grease in the right front axle joint housing and subsequently dismantled it and replaced the CV boot which was broken. The CV joint and the axle were is good condition so I replaced the boot. I also replaced the axle seal and the axle bushing. Again, no change in the vibration issue.
I have also replaced the drag links/ball joints for the steering as these were worn or the boots had been damaged (old age, not impact). The front end has been re-aligned and the tires have been road force balanced. No change in the vibration issue
All fluids in the TC and differentials have been changed with the approved fluids. The drives hafts have been greased as well.
I also replace the TC front drive shaft flange seal on the TC (per the WIS) since it appeared to be leaking slightly.
I did the following "diagnostic" tests:
I drove the truck at 28 – 32 MPH with the transfer case in Low. This results in the same homekinetic shaft speed as 58 – 62 MPH in High. There is no discernible vibration under these conditions.
I marked and then removed the front drive shaft and drove the truck (TC diff locked) at 58 – 62 MPH in High – vibration still present. I replaced the front drive shaft in its original orientation shaft and drove the truck at 58 – 62 MPH in High – vibration still present.
I marked and then removed the rear drive shaft and drove the truck (TC diff locked) at 58 – 62 MPH in High – vibration still present. I replaced the rear drive shaft in its original orientation shaft and drove the truck at 58 – 62 MPH in High – vibration still present.
The bearing free play is essentially unmeasurable on both the left and right side; there is no bearing free play if you try and rock the wheels either.
So I am stumped as to the source of the vibration. My local Indy shop doesn't have a clue either. I don't want to get into the mode of just throwing time and money at it, so any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
- FD
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thairish
Date registered: Jun 2006
Location: hk/th
Vehicle(s): 461: 230ge/swb & g300cdi/lwb
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Tire balancing? That put a stop to my shakes that were recurring at about the same speed as yours. Good tire shop with a very experienced crew was all it took. |
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MiN
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: May 2006
Location: Alpujarras, Spain
Vehicle(s): No cars, at all.
Posts: 555
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Have you examined the wishbone and trailing arm bushes on the front axle? The trailing arm bushes can be difficult to examine without taking the trailing arms off. Try wobbling the trailing arm with a large lever next to the two front bushes. |
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DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
Posts: 9963
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
MiN - 9/9/2014 1:55 AM
Have you examined the wishbone and trailing arm bushes on the front axle? The trailing arm bushes can be difficult to examine without taking the trailing arms off. Try wobbling the trailing arm with a large lever next to the two front bushes.
Yes! When I changed out all the rubber bushings in the front suspension, a similar vibration disappeared in mine. |
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chris505
Date registered: May 2007
Location: San Francisco
Vehicle(s): '79 280E/'80 280GE/'00 G500
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
You said earlier that you don't think it can be the tire balance because the vibes come and go and can be modulated with throttle, this logic may be flawed.
If you don't want to completely rebalance tires, try moving rear tires onto front axle. If the vibes move from the floor to the steering wheel...
Did you test the center shaft balance by putting tcase in Neutral, transmission in Drive and increase engine speed till the center shaft spins above 5000rpm? I realize your test in Low range should do the same job but I would perform this simple stationary test also.
Worn out radius arm bushings could cause vibes by slightly changing the axle's pinion angle, which could alter driveshaft u-joint angles (phasing) enough to create some unfriendly harmonics. Though if this was the case on your truck the driveshaft removal tests you just preformed should have exposed the front axle or rear axle bushings as the culprit.
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
chris505 - 9/9/2014 12:18 PM
You said earlier that you don't think it can be the tire balance because the vibes come and go and can be modulated with throttle, this logic may be flawed.
If you don't want to completely rebalance tires, try moving rear tires onto front axle. If the vibes move from the floor to the steering wheel...
Yes, the tires have been balanced twice as well as rotated front to back and cross rotated left front to right rear, etc. No change in vibration
Did you test the center shaft balance by putting tcase in Neutral, transmission in Drive and increase engine speed till the center shaft spins above 5000rpm? I realize your test in Low range should do the same job but I would perform this simple stationary test also.
I wish I could perform this test, but the electronics on the 2003 are too "smart" and won't let the transmission shift out of first gear if the TC is in neutral. The only way to get a high RPM test is driving in Low.
Worn out radius arm bushings could cause vibes by slightly changing the axle's pinion angle, which could alter driveshaft u-joint angles (phasing) enough to create some unfriendly harmonics. Though if this was the case on your truck the driveshaft removal tests you just preformed should have exposed the front axle or rear axle bushings as the culprit.
I agree that axle housing rotation under load can cause this, but running with no drive shaft should have ruled this out, although, as suggested above, I am going to inspect the trailing arm bushings, etc.
BTW, I had a friend drive the truck at the "resonance" while I "listened" at various places in the truck (and hoping not to get a ticket for not wearing my seat belt). It really seems to be coming from the front end somewhere. No floor vibration over the TC and no noise in the cargo area. |
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chris505
Date registered: May 2007
Location: San Francisco
Vehicle(s): '79 280E/'80 280GE/'00 G500
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Is the shop that balanced your tires this time the same shop as last time?
If yes, I would seriously suspect tire balance as the cause of your troublesome vibes.
If a different shop was used, I would still seriously suspect tire balance if I was in your shoes.
Been there, done that.
---This vehicles is more sensitive to tire balance than any other car on the road.---- |
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colsG55
Veteran
Date registered: Aug 2013
Location: Dubai
Vehicle(s): G55 Classic 2000, TD5 110, 200 Series Land Cruiser
Posts: 209
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
I need to do my control arm bushes which I think will remove a speed and road surface related vibration.
When you look at the bushes they are OK but when you really crank then over a with a big screw driver you can see the rubber is breaking away a little where it connects to the inner metal part of the bush.
I have been living with it for a while as it comes & goes depending on the road your driving on, but now our summer is nearing an end it is almost time to crawl underneath & get on with it. |
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| Bad to ugly . . .
I took the G to another Indy who was recommended by my first guy. He checked it out and has found play in both the front and rear drive shaft flanges on the transfer case. He invited me to come over and check in out while it was on the lift and the play is quite substantial - the flange/shaft will "tilt" (e.g., move off-axis) a good millimeter or two. This tells me that at the very least the drive shaft flange shaft ball bearings (one on each shaft) are bad and that the tapered bearings on the differential carrier may be bad as well. If you look at the design of that section of the transfer case, the drive shaft flange shaft is supported on one end by said ball bearing (part no. 0059811525 on the front and 0039818725 on the rear) and by the inside splined differential carrier which is in turn supported by the tapered bearings (0099815905 front, 0079812105 rear).
This type of "play" is exactly what I what I would think would cause the type of noise and vibration I have been experiencing. So a couple of questions if I might
- Is play in the drive shaft flange shaft "normal" (I would think not)
- Can such play re resolved by just replacing shaft the ball bearings (in each end cap) or is one looking at all four bearings?
- Can the shaft bearings be replaced with the transfer case in position by simply removing the end caps or does the TC need to be removed from the truck?
- Why would both bearings be bad at the same time?
I would appreciate any thoughts/help people have.
Thanks!
- FD
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chris505
Date registered: May 2007
Location: San Francisco
Vehicle(s): '79 280E/'80 280GE/'00 G500
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Ive never seen 463 t case bearings go bad but their replacement is fairly strait forward (with the right tools).
They should have no up/down play like you describe, which would cause vibes and eventually wear out that end of the driveshaft.
You said you recently replaced a weeping t case output/input seal, perhaps the leaking seal drained all the fluid out causing bearings to run dry.
Do you have any records of the tcase fluid being renewed in the 83k miles before your purchase?
Filling a tcase with incorrect fluid (axle diff oil) may cause the fluid to foam and not lubricate bearings when driven. |
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| RE: Update . . .
I took the G over to a friend who has a lift that can support the G (mine does not have the necessary weight rating) and we carefully examined the transfer case flanges and determined that the "play" that was observed by the Indy was axial only. Pushing up on the drive shaft was causing the overall length of the flange-U-joint-shaft junction to increase which was pulling the flange in and out of the TC housing. This gave the illusion that the flange was moving radially, but in fact it was moving axially. If one looks at the design of the transfer case, some in/out play would be expected because the shafts that drive the output flanges are splined at one end and held by a ball bearing/circlip on the other, thus allowing some end movement. We could find no measurable radial movement of these flanges.
BTW, I tested the TC further as the source of the vibration by using wooden wedges to firmly anchor the TC to the chassis, effectively bypassing the TC bushings. The theory here is that if the TC is the source, the vibration should get worse when firmly anchored. Well, it made no difference, so I really don't think that the TC is where the vibration is coming from.
While we had the truck up on the lift, we took off the wheels, locked the differentials (to avoid spider gear damage) and ran it up to ~60 MPH and I could feel the vibration. But unfortunately, we could not localize the source of the vibration. Testing in this mode was very difficult because the electronic throttle system for the M113 engine can easily become unstable when the engine is run at speed with no load (the feedback transfer equation assumes a phase shift based on a loaded engine; when unloaded, the phase shift can approach or exceed 180 degrees which results in system instability). Running this way also makes the truck prone to throwing "transmission output speed sensor" codes as well.
So we let the drive train just idle along while we observed each component very carefully. What we noted was the both the front and rear drive shafts appeared to "wobble" - each in different places on the shaft and each with different amounts. The "wobble" was easily observable with the naked eye and was probably on the order of 1 - 2 mm. I took some crappy iPhone video, but have no way to "post" it. So the question if, how much "run out" or "wobble" is allowable on these drive shafts? What are the odds that both drive shafts are "bent"
What ever the source of the problem is, it is getting worse. The truck is now only really drivable under ~50 MPH. The affected speed range has increased to ~ 52 - 70 MPH. In a way, I sort of think of this as good news because I keep hoping that something will just break outright so I can fix it!
Does anyone have any further thoughts?
Thanks!
- FD |
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colsG55
Veteran
Date registered: Aug 2013
Location: Dubai
Vehicle(s): G55 Classic 2000, TD5 110, 200 Series Land Cruiser
Posts: 209
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Several months ago I saw a good tutorial video on prop shafts, I cannot remember if it was posted on on G forum or Land Rover forum but it was very good, they showed a shaft spinning on a bench, then put it out of phase, changed the drive angles etc & IIRC they do get a wobble up even with the input/output angle are only slightly off centre. It might be worth searching some of the forums or youtube for prop shaft video's, you may have movement but it just maybe OK. Removing the shaft & running them on a lathe or similar may show them to run true but when fitted with some offset may make them track off centre a little as you highlighted, but this might be within normal limits. |
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