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AlanMcR
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, CA, Los Altos
Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL
Posts: 3500
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Good point. Any chance that someone removed/disassembled a shaft and got the phasing wrong?
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colsG55
Veteran
Date registered: Aug 2013
Location: Dubai
Vehicle(s): G55 Classic 2000, TD5 110, 200 Series Land Cruiser
Posts: 209
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=470937339716400&fref=nf
Here is the video, it may be a phasing issue. |
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MiN
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: May 2006
Location: Alpujarras, Spain
Vehicle(s): No cars, at all.
Posts: 555
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
It's easy to check too. There are phasing line-up marks on the shafts. The booklet you referred to for refitting the centre prop shaft has the diagrams showing what to look for. |
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
The phasing was the very first thing I checked. MB makes it easy by providing cast arrows that point toward each other. I'm thinking I may take the front shaft back off now that the vibration has gotten worse and see if there is a difference. I noticed that (but didn't take a picture of) the tell-tale oil ring on the slip joints that indicates how far down the shaft the slip joint has compressed had a curvy pattern to it the day was ran the truck on the lift. I got to thinking about what might cause that and concluded that a wobbly slip joint would leave just such a pattern. I went out to take a picture tonight and the ring is fairly straight - but that also makes sense because the suspension has had a lot of movement since I was on the highway and it was vibrating. I need to get it up to speed of vibration and smoothly coast to a stop and check it again.
In preparation (besides stocking up on Vaseline so it won't hurt so much), I have been looking into sourcing drive shafts. According the MB both the front and rear shafts (4604102118 Rear, 4604102218 Front) are showing as No Longer Available. The drive shafts for 2006 and later (4634101102 Rear, 4634101302 Front) are still available, but the question is, will they fit my 2003? The EPC indicates that 2006 (MY2007) was a transition year for this part, but I don't know what the change was. Does anyone know? Can anyone recommend a source for driveshafts or even driveshaft rebuilding?
Thanks!
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colsG55
Veteran
Date registered: Aug 2013
Location: Dubai
Vehicle(s): G55 Classic 2000, TD5 110, 200 Series Land Cruiser
Posts: 209
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
I had not heard of people doing it in G circles but in the world of Land Rovers where breakages are far more common, removing one of the prop shafts & locking in the CDL to drive home in 2wd is quite common, I have done it many times over the years myself.
To help isolate if your vibration is front or rear why not remove either your front or rear shaft, lock in the CDL so you still have drive then go for a drive, at least you will be able to confirm if your problem is from the front of rear.
Here are 2 example of my driving home in front wheel drive after twisting s prop shaft & another was after snapping both rear axles.
http://cdr.smugmug.com/General-Photos/General/n-Xx2rs/i-NCRqFVj/A
http://cdr.smugmug.com/General-Photos/General/n-Xx2rs/i-WgKp5F6/A |
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KJ6IRM
Member
Date registered: Oct 2012
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Vehicle(s): 2011 G550, 1989 E30 M3
Posts: 8
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Floobydust - 9/18/2014 4:54 PM
The EPC indicates that 2006 (MY2007) was a transition year for this part, but I don't know what the change was. Does anyone know?
It could be the transition to non-greasable u-joints. I know on the newer Gs that there are no longer any zerk fittings on the drive shafts. |
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NHDave
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: Dec 2013
Location: Seacoast NH.
Vehicle(s): 2004 AMG
Posts: 465
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Incredible what your doing Floobydust... You'll learn a lot from all of this! And thank you for keeping us all updated with your progress.
I know many have mentioned tire balancing.... I'm curious if any one of the two places, where you had your tires balanced, gave you your balance numbers off the RF balancer? Some tires can be slightly out of round and those tires yield higher numbers. 0 being best, of course.
I bought four tire recently, my numbers range from 28 down to 7. The 28 couldn't be corrected, no matter how many times they repositioned the tire to the rim. I had it replaced, got a 11 from the new tire.
Best of luck with this. |
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512bbi
Expert
Date registered: Jan 2007
Location: North western US and Europe
Vehicle(s): 05G55kge,Range rover classic,clk55amg,ML 430
Posts: 1313
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Common things happen commonly.
The speed the vibration that happens is so typical of the G wobble issue and more likely your problem.
Does it go away at 80mph?.....at that speed there is enough pressure against the axle connections to the chassis to kill the vibes unless your tires are square.
A set of tires with low road force figures (all below 15 just like car tires),that look round when they spin on the balancer and do balance with out excessive amount of weight is the only way for a smooth G provided........trailling arm bushing are not worn,front shocks are good and your steering shock is not old.
I would suggest to go for a drive with out the steering shock and if you vibes get way worse you need a new steering shock fist of all and bushings on the arms.
If the tires are not quite round,low road force and balanced properly you will still have problems
The fact that it changes with acceleration or deceleration fits the tires ,bushings and steering shock issue.
The reason is you compress and extend your arms to the chassis bushings when you change speed as they move A LOT.
It is all unique to the front end design of the G because of the fact that has so much play on the front axle going forward and backwards due to the excessive movement allowed by the tralling arm to the chassis bushings unless they are new.....then they will still move that much if they had to, with the lockers engaged in a turn,and regain close to their static length position and dampen the vibes going straight before they deteriorate after a few miles......in the main time fresh steering shocks and perfect tires will keep your G smooth.
See if the vibes are minimized on a lengthy half circle steady radius sweeper you can take at 60mph where one side will set and kill or minimize the vibes.
Mario |
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
It's been a while since I have posted an update - mostly because it has taken a while to continue to chase this issue, including waiting for parts (as you know, most G parts are just lying around on the shelf).
I determined that I was suffering from multiple sources of "vibration" so I have been chasing each one down trying to eliminate the overall issue.
One of the first things I looked into and early on my G was the driveshafts which appeared to be just fine. But as the vibration continued to worsen over time (my attitude was drive it until something breaks), I took another look at them. I removed the front drive shaft again and ran my G on a dyno where I could load the rear axle as I wished. What I observed is that under some loads, the rear drive shaft would oscillate visibly (that's the beauty of being on a dyno). I suspected a bent or unbalanced drive shaft, but when I removed it to inspect it, I found that there was a "flat spot" on the rear U-joint. This was not the case earlier, but it certainly is now. I replaced the rear driveshaft (I was able to find an NOS greaseable shaft (thank you to Sean at Eurotruck)) and that eliminated one small component of the overall vibration issue.
In case anyone wants to know, the old style greaseable front and rear shafts (4604102118 Rear, 4604102218 Front) are no longer available from MB, but the drive shafts for 2006 and later (4634101102 Rear, 4634101302 Front) are a direct replacement, but are the non-greaseable, "sealed for life" disposable variety.
Along the way, I found an MB DTB that said to to replace the transfer case bushings with all soft ("white") bushings for a "vibration complaint", so I figured WTF, and did it. I had previously inspected mine and they appeared to be good, so I had ignored them. I was shocked at how much of an improvement that made. It seems that sagging bushings can change the drive shaft alignment just enough to cause vibrations. I did some research and found that for TC equipped vehicles, a 1/2 degree error in alignment can cause vibration. Who knew.
Lastly, I replaced the steering damper and tightened the steering box a tad (yes, counterclockwise on that) and that seems to have tamed all of the vibration that could be felt in the steering wheel. Even the wobble of death seems to be under control.
But I still have the low frequency "droning" vibration in the 55 - 65 MPH range that started this whole thing off! This is more of a noise than a vibration that can be felt. One thing I have noticed about it is that the intensity comes and goes - some days you don't even notice it and some days you wonder if you're going to make it home. Let the truck sit for a few days, and it takes a few miles before it reappears. The noise itself sounds like the sound (not feel) of a driveshaft vibration, but the fact that it comes and goes kind of tells me it might be something like a bushing. I have new radius/trailing arm bushings on order, but I'm kind of running out of things to replace. Any thoughts?
One other thing - when I had it aligned, the shop noted that the left front camber was just slightly (0.1) more negative than spec. I would think bearings, but again, there is not measurable play in either wheel.
Thanks again everyone for your help and suggestions!
- FD
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NYG500
Member
Date registered: Aug 2014
Location: NJ/NY
Vehicle(s): 2007 G500
Posts: 43
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Glad your tracking the problem down and it has been getting a bit better, I'm sure your sharing your experiences will be helpful in the future to members who may suffer from similar complaints. Can you tell me about the greaseable NOS driveshafts you got. Were they just old stock pre-2007 drive shafts that Euro truck had or something else? I'm annoyed that my 2007 has non-serviceable disposable drive shafts. |
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H1LM002G55
Expert
Date registered: Mar 2010
Location: S Florida / Geneva / Jeddah
Vehicle(s): 500 GE, G55, LM002, H1
Posts: 1796
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
I was really p*ssed to find non-greasable driveshafts on the G63. What BS. Mercedes is programming obsolescence into these vehicles.
ClubGwagen/ apparently offers new driveshafts that are user serviceable that were made in the USA. I do not know much about them.
I use Castrol Olistamoly 2 on my shafts / u-joints / slip joint. I grease them yearly. |
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colsG55
Veteran
Date registered: Aug 2013
Location: Dubai
Vehicle(s): G55 Classic 2000, TD5 110, 200 Series Land Cruiser
Posts: 209
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
I changed the front radius arm & panhard rod bushes a few days back & it made a big different to front end vibration it is now probably 95% right but it always was & still seems to be quite road specific with vibration. Now to try & remove the last 5%, the previous owner must have chased the vib for a while as there are new tie rod ends and new steering damper fitted.
I might try to adjust the steering box next to see if that helps.
I also have pretty stiff springs which may make it worse on some road surfaces. |
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H1LM002G55
Expert
Date registered: Mar 2010
Location: S Florida / Geneva / Jeddah
Vehicle(s): 500 GE, G55, LM002, H1
Posts: 1796
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Read my post about having the wheels properly balanced by someone who knows what they are doing on a *recently calibrated* wheel balancing machine. To me, this is a big reason for drive vibrations on a G- improperly balanced wheels and tires. |
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512bbi
Expert
Date registered: Jan 2007
Location: North western US and Europe
Vehicle(s): 05G55kge,Range rover classic,clk55amg,ML 430
Posts: 1313
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Floobydust
Your camber is absolutely no problem,mine is the same since new.
I think with new bushings you will get to like your G lots more.....
Stiffer front springs help instead of making the vibes worse provided front shocks are good.
I know most do not want to look at this point but if you take your G and measure left wheel base and also right I bet they all are shorter on the left and that is why they are all leaning to the right seating taller on the left side.
I found that out when I had to discover why my amg pulled to the left on hard braking while towing or very hard braking for long distance.
If you shorten or compress your front tralling arm to the chassis bushings your front end gets taller.
This is because as the bushings compress the tralling arms go the an angle that shortens the distance axle to chassis.
If you put the truck on drive and brake hard so the truck will not move if you give it gas to go while standing still you will see your front end rise .......let of the gas while still on the brakes and it will stay taller because you just compressed your front bushings......let go of the gas and you will see your front end dip.
Your vibes start with the tires and as the wobble starts the front bushings are constantly letting the front axle face left and right as fast as the frequency of the wobble dictates and your caster constantly counter acts this by changing your steering to go to the opposite direction with the net result having the vibe getting worse if you accelerate because this ads to the compression of the bushings when worn with lots of play in them which creates more possible movement so vibes gets worse.
When you decelerate the opposite happens.
If you had solid bushings it would be even worse unless the chassis had no tralling arms and panhard rods front and rear but fixed position of wheels throughout suspension travel and a perfectly even wheel base left and right.
I tow a lot and that messes up the bushings fast ....when worn I can feel when my tire balance is starting to come out of being perfect.
The G needs ,perfect steering damper,tires wheels and bushings before one chases any other cause for vibration even more so if it is the typical 55-65 wobble they all get when these components wear out.
If you of road a lot with your G your bushings get a work out changing shape and then you might see the vibes go away for a while after leaving the trail.
Finally I think with out those flexible bushings on the tralling arms when the lockers are in on rocky terrain or good traction surface the gears might not be able to handle the force on all the wheels trying to run at uneven speeds while turning while they are locked to turn at the same speed,so the flex at the bushings help the loads to come in gradually......just theorizing here 
Mario
Edited by 512bbi 10/18/2014 1:09 AM
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . . another update
Thank you again everyone for the additional information. I have now replaced the radius/trailing arm to chassis bushings, which, like many of the other bushings that I have replaced, resulted in an over all improvement. In fact, when it comes to chassis dynamics and over all feel, the G drives like a wet dream! Tire vibrations - gone. Steering wheel wobble of death - gone. All is good, except the droning in that 55 - 65 MPH range is still there. As I said before, this is a low, heavy sound and not a vibration you can feel. If you turn the stereo way up you would never know it is happening. But a normal levels, you can really hear it. Interestingly, the droning does not start the first time you reach the 55 - 65 MPH speed range - it takes driving for a few miles for it to emerge. But emerge it does. Ironically, now that the chassis is really tightened up I can hear the noise occur at a much lower level at 30 MPH as well.
I have ordered the axle to radius/trailing arms bushings as well and will be replacing those also. But I'm getting pretty stumped (and broke) here. I found an MB close by that has an acoustic triangulation system system and they think they can find the "source" using that, so after I replace the last set of bushings I'm going to take it up to them as see what they can do. I'm also going to have the kill than damn nasty speed controlled volume function on the stereo (using DAS). I will let everyone know what happens. And if you think of anything else, please feel free to post.
Thank you again to everyone! It's been quite a problem and I really appreciate the time/effort people have put in to help.
- FD
 (All Parts Replaced.jpg)
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 All Parts Replaced.jpg (289KB - 0 downloads)
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colsG55
Veteran
Date registered: Aug 2013
Location: Dubai
Vehicle(s): G55 Classic 2000, TD5 110, 200 Series Land Cruiser
Posts: 209
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Glad to hear you are nearing the end, with the money you have spent I hope your planning on holding onto it for a while.
This morning I found the final source of my vibration, a slightly out of round rim on the front. I chased around town to find a good laser balancer and it was well worth the effort, both of the front wheels were fairly well balanced on the initial spin up but one of them was slightly out of round, you could see it by eye when you really looked hard or let your finger run on it when spinning. With the rim now on the back the front is almost perfect and now I can feel a slight vibration coming through the seat so the vibration has moved aft which is also good confirmation the rim was a problem. Now to chase up another rim. |
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512bbi
Expert
Date registered: Jan 2007
Location: North western US and Europe
Vehicle(s): 05G55kge,Range rover classic,clk55amg,ML 430
Posts: 1313
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
colsG55 - 10/22/2014 11:12 AM
Glad to hear you are nearing the end, with the money you have spent I hope your planning on holding onto it for a while.
This morning I found the final source of my vibration, a slightly out of round rim on the front. I chased around town to find a good laser balancer and it was well worth the effort, both of the front wheels were fairly well balanced on the initial spin up but one of them was slightly out of round, you could see it by eye when you really looked hard or let your finger run on it when spinning. With the rim now on the back the front is almost perfect and now I can feel a slight vibration coming through the seat so the vibration has moved aft which is also good confirmation the rim was a problem. Now to chase up another rim.
On the same point I got one of my rims not as perfect as the rest even though not as bad as this one but it does effect things slightly.
I wonder if one that far out as yours where you can see it so easy if it is in fact possible to repair and be made perfectly round?
Mario |
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| RE: New to the G, but not to MB . . .update
The G has been at the dealer for over a week and they can't find the source of the vibration/thrumming either. The service manager commented that the issue makes the truck so unpleasant he couldn't drive it if were his truck. They are expecting a new G in the next day or two and they are going to swap the wheels/tires and see if the problem goes with the tires or stays with my truck. He thought it might be a bit of a hail Mary, but they want to positively rule out tires/wheels. I can only hope as tires are cheaper than the remaining alternatives. |
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H1LM002G55
Expert
Date registered: Mar 2010
Location: S Florida / Geneva / Jeddah
Vehicle(s): 500 GE, G55, LM002, H1
Posts: 1796
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
Wow.
Another thought.....Not every MB dealer is very G experienced.
If possible, I would call around and ask to see which dealer in your area services a good portion of Gs.
MB experience with road cars does not equal G experience.
Just some food for thought. It may be worth a drive to take it to someone more familiar with the vehicle that has had more training / better, longer experience. |
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colsG55
Veteran
Date registered: Aug 2013
Location: Dubai
Vehicle(s): G55 Classic 2000, TD5 110, 200 Series Land Cruiser
Posts: 209
| Re: New to the G, but not to MB . . .
512bbi - 10/22/2014 8:02 AM
colsG55 - 10/22/2014 11:12 AM
Glad to hear you are nearing the end, with the money you have spent I hope your planning on holding onto it for a while.
This morning I found the final source of my vibration, a slightly out of round rim on the front. I chased around town to find a good laser balancer and it was well worth the effort, both of the front wheels were fairly well balanced on the initial spin up but one of them was slightly out of round, you could see it by eye when you really looked hard or let your finger run on it when spinning. With the rim now on the back the front is almost perfect and now I can feel a slight vibration coming through the seat so the vibration has moved aft which is also good confirmation the rim was a problem. Now to chase up another rim.
On the same point I got one of my rims not as perfect as the rest even though not as bad as this one but it does effect things slightly.
I wonder if one that far out as yours where you can see it so easy if it is in fact possible to repair and be made perfectly round?
Mario
I had the rear wheel which was slightly out of round which was on the front then moved to the rear straightened yesterday & it has made a big difference to the way the vehicle drives, it is far more pleasant without the vibration going through the vehicle. The vibration was not bad enough to be a real issue but of an annoyance & fatiguing. I would say the car is now about 97-98% right, with an A/T style tyre and stiff springs I am wondering it it is possible to get it 100% perfect, our roads are also not perfect so with the stiff springs I may be being to harsh & expecting to much.
Without doubt I think these trucks are very critical on wheel balance more so than only other vehicle I have owned.
It will be interesting to see how your truck is with a new set of wheels & tyres, I hope it fixes your long running issue.
Edited by colsG55 11/5/2014 4:28 AM
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