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| Otiswesty Administrator Date registered: Jun 2007 Location: Portland, Oregon Vehicle(s): 463.241, 461.213 Posts: 3004  | Re: Read this now please Our borders are so porous, people come at will. Why do we think every car has been through customs. There are car enthusiasts and "RI's" that bring in vehicles all the time without scrutiny. The risk belongs not only to the budget importer, but all future owners as well, whether they are cognizant or not. Can we collect and buy weapons that were effective tools in the early and mid 20th century to protect ourselves from a tyrannical government with unlimited resources and electronic feelers in every aspect of our ordinary and extraordinary personal feelings and accomplishments. Maybe so, but I am cynical in that regard. I love the USA, but it requires the kind of compromise that any human relationship does. A cheap lot down at El Dorado Ranch is a better insurance policy as far as I'm concerned. | ||
| #222951 - in reply to #222939 |
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| DUTCH Administrator Doppelgänger Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: US, GA, Atlanta Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter Posts: 9963  | More Info It's not as if they don't have enough to do along our southern border and elsewhere!  http://jalopnik.com/the-feds-just-seized-40-land-rovers-imported-to... and http://blog.caranddriver.com/exclusive-feds-declare-war-on-black-ma... No mention of the G. Too busy taking care of "important stuff" to have the time and resources to do anything along the border. | ||
| #222974 - in reply to #222908 |
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| Brent Expert Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: SW Colorado USA Vehicle(s): '13 Wolfsburg GTI Posts: 1754  | Re: Read this now please otiswesty - 7/17/2014 5:51 PM Our borders are so porous, people come at will. Why do we think every car has been through customs. There are car enthusiasts and "RI's" that bring in vehicles all the time without scrutiny. The risk belongs not only to the budget importer, but all future owners as well, whether they are cognizant or not. Why could these vehicles not have been denied legal registrations? Why didn't they just send out letters notifying owners of the problems? Why did they feel the need to send armed federal agents to collect these vehicles in a whirlwind confiscation? Can we collect and buy weapons that were effective tools in the early and mid 20th century to protect ourselves from a tyrannical government with unlimited resources and electronic feelers in every aspect of our ordinary and extraordinary personal feelings and accomplishments. Maybe so, but I am cynical in that regard. Well I think that depends. I think that if you live in a major metropolitan area firearms are likely a waste of time. When marshall law is declared in your city you are screwed, check with the folks in New Orleans after their natural disaster. Expect to be treated like cattle at that point. I have NO idea where the "personal feelings and accomplishments" came from or what it pertains to but... Know that the goal is to make you doubt that you can protect your own freedoms. Sounds like they are most of the way there with many living on the west coast. Yeah, just accept it, nothing you can do, just go along for the ride. Great plan, history also tells you how this will end for you if this is your choice. I love the USA, but it requires the kind of compromise that any human relationship does. A cheap lot down at El Dorado Ranch is a better insurance policy as far as I'm concerned. Compromise... everybody wants to feel good about compromise. My experience is that it is rarely a compromise at all but more of an acceptance of things you are willing to give up control over. It is slow, incremental and if you do not see this action for what it was, you are very likely to compromise yourself right out of the freedoms we used to gaurantee in this country. Portrait me as paranoid or "out there" all that you want. I do not sit around and obsess about such things. It is only about a 5 minute walk to the forest for me though. Lots of food water and shelter out there, not many people. Enjoy that big city lifestyle and all the lies of security that come with it. Nobody ever thinks it can happen here, or happen to them. My point is, I think that is a very naive stance to take. We should all be paying more attention to signs like this. It was an unnecessary act of power. It was intended to gauge the response of the public. Clearly the govt has made great inroads in our culture that people actually make excuses for why it happened rather than storm the gates of the castle. Pretty sad diatribe IMO. | ||
| #222975 - in reply to #222951 |
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| Suppatime Member Date registered: Aug 2012 Location: Vehicle(s): 1980 300GD OM606 / 717.4xx Custom, 2003 C32 AMG Posts: 35  | Re: Read this now please I have done a large, large amount of research on this situation and the reasons why things have gotten the way they have, going to far as to contact a gent who used to work for MotoREX here in California and used to import grey-market Nissan Skyline GT-Rs for a living (granted, that company went under for tax evasion, but I digress...). To understand this situation, you have to go back to the beginning: Mercedes Benz was getting frustrated that US citizens were flying to Europe, buying Mercedes vehicles there (for much cheaper than they could in the US) and importing the vehicles themselves, often saving them a few thousand dollars (and cutting into their profits). They got together with US lawmakers and pushed restrictions on the importation of vehicles at the Federal level. This is how we got the 25+ year FMVSS safety and 21+ year EPA exemptions, the so-called "Grandfather Rule". At this point, MB didn't care anymore, and the lawmakers believed that any vehicle being imported after that fact would be more for a collector than anything else. In California, restrictions got even more confusing, as around the time the Grandfather laws were passed, California was trying to improve its horrible air quality with the Smog Check Program. In short, even though California is the home of the hot rodding industry in the US, they brushed aside the desires of the enthusiasts for the overall goal, which honestly isn't a bad thing in my eyes. There were (and still are) major air quality issues here. This did make it difficult for most, however. The laws that were eventually passed were revised many, many times, each revision hearing the pleas of the enthusiast and ultimately conceding to the lobbying power clean air groups. What we were left with was an exemption for gasoline-powered vehicles manufactured prior to 1976 and an exemption for diesels manufactured prior to 1998, as there was no initial Smog Checks for them. 1998 saw the revision to the program to include diesels finally: the Smog Check II Program. The rationale was that the vast majority of diesels still on the road at that point were either fleet vehicles or well-maintained rigs owned by individuals for their private businesses. All other vehicles were likely a series of Ford or Dodge pick-up trucks and a handful of Mercedes and Volkswagen sedans. California had already been imposing rules on these diesels coming into the state, so they felt no further steps were necessary, especially dealing with pre-OBD 1 diagnostics (quite literally, no way to communicate with the engines). The overarching message here is one of money and power. You have to pay to play, so to speak. Land Rover was unable to import their aging Defender line after 1997 because of tightened controls on vehicle safety, specifically side-impact protection. The Defenders, without completely redesigning the aluminum body, would not comply. When people continued importing them anyway, US Customs & Border Protection started to get a little pissed off that no one was paying attention to them. They got even more pissed off that when people did finally understand their vehicles would get seized, they started swapping the VINs to dupe them. Truthfully, this is not the fault of many of the owners of the D90s or the D110s (or the 109 and 130 respectfully). This should result in massive lawsuits against RI's and illegal importers, if they can be found before they flee. It isn't about conforming to US specs, it's about people knowing the law and violating it, and the message sent to them. Quite unfortunate, and ultimately enraging that the people who have shelved out tens of thousands of dollars can't be given a 30 day grace period in which they can sell their vehicles out of the country, but this is the unfortunate truth of the situation. | ||
| #222976 - in reply to #222908 |
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| Suppatime Member Date registered: Aug 2012 Location: Vehicle(s): 1980 300GD OM606 / 717.4xx Custom, 2003 C32 AMG Posts: 35 | Re: Read this now please As an addendum, the Federal vehicle laws at present proving legality regarding this crackdown are as follows: (1) Vehicle must be at least 25 years old at time of importation through US Customs & Border Protection date-stamped form to be exempt from FMVSS Safety requirements, and (2) at least 21 years old at time of importation to qualify for EPA exemption. Vehicle age is determined by country-of-origin VIN, but moreover by the condition of the rivets by which the VIN plate attaches to the vehicle. For those of you (like myself) who are restoring your vehicle, it is imperative not to pull the VIN plates off the vehicle for painting and refinishing. I was considering going through the factory and getting a new plate made (as mine is scratched and dented), but I'm glad I never went through it... cosmetic imperfection does not outweigh keeping my vehicle legal. Hope this helps, and if any of you are scared or worried at this point, go through your paperwork and find your US Customs & Border Protection form. Photocopy it and keep a copy with your registration and insurance. I'd go so far as to laminate the original. For those of you who do not have your original copy but have a legally-registered vehicle, secure the earliest vehicle registration you can. When vehicles enter the United States, owners typically have 10 days to register in state and pay taxes. That first registration is not a replacement for importation paperwork, but can determine the year of importation as a measure to slow down seizure of your vehicle if the issue arises. If all else fails, there is reason to be scared because they are really starting to crack down. Your last resort should be to contact Reina Lee at the Federal DOT with your VIN and pray that she can find you in their system and send you copies of all of your paperwork. If she is unable to find your vehicle in her system and you don't have any proof, you will likely have only a couple days to sell your vehicle out of the country before they come and seize it. This is the reality of how seriously US Customs is. My hope is that none of you enthusiasts ever experience this (same goes for me, but between the 8 months of research, the 60+ page binder of laws I brought with me to the local DMV and all the paperwork I got from the 2nd owner of my 300GD here in the US, my truck is legal). | ||
| #222977 - in reply to #222908 |
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| koly Elite Veteran Date registered: Jul 2006 Location: Scottsdale, AZ USA Vehicle(s): 2000 G500 Posts: 823  | Re: Read this now please Suppatime - 7/19/2014 12:32 PM I have done a large, large amount of research on this situation and the reasons why things have gotten the way they have, going to far as to contact a gent who used to work for MotoREX here in California and used to import grey-market Nissan Skyline GT-Rs for a living (granted, that company went under for tax evasion, but I digress...). To understand this situation, you have to go back to the beginning: Mercedes Benz was getting frustrated that US citizens were flying to Europe, buying Mercedes vehicles there (for much cheaper than they could in the US) and importing the vehicles themselves, often saving them a few thousand dollars (and cutting into their profits). They got together with US lawmakers and pushed restrictions on the importation of vehicles at the Federal level. This is how we got the 25+ year FMVSS safety and 21+ year EPA exemptions, the so-called "Grandfather Rule". At this point, MB didn't care anymore, and the lawmakers believed that any vehicle being imported after that fact would be more for a collector than anything else. ... The overarching message here is one of money and power. You have to pay to play, so to speak. Land Rover was unable to import their aging Defender line after 1997 because of tightened controls on vehicle safety, specifically side-impact protection. The Defenders, without completely redesigning the aluminum body, would not comply. When people continued importing them anyway, US Customs & Border Protection started to get a little pissed off that no one was paying attention to them. They got even more pissed off that when people did finally understand their vehicles would get seized, they started swapping the VINs to dupe them. I too have been following this, (both as a former D90 owner and as someone with a lot of Land Rover friends), AND one of my good friends here in Phoenix had his D90 seized in the sweep while he was out of town. In this instance (the large seizure sweep), it appears Jaguar Land Rover North America worked extremely closely (and continues to) with CBP in organizing these seizures. You can find a copy of the affidavit on defendersource.com: http://www.defendersource.com/forum/showpost.php?p=547141&postcount... The affidavit is riddled with errors ranging from vehicle count to mfg and sale dates. There is no mention of MB in the affidavit. IMO, as JLRNA is prepping to introduce a new Defender in 2015/16 that will be available in the US, this entire thing appears to be a pre-emptive strike to bolster new Defender purchases vs. taking a giant risk of importing one that might be seized by the feds. JLRNA is just starting to pump the "Land Rover Heritage" aspect that looks to be featured heavily in the Defender's re-introduction. | ||
| #222978 - in reply to #222976 |
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| Suppatime Member Date registered: Aug 2012 Location: Vehicle(s): 1980 300GD OM606 / 717.4xx Custom, 2003 C32 AMG Posts: 35 | Re: Read this now please I had a friend looking into purchasing or building a D130 until this happened (rightfully so) and would agree with your assessment. I talked to one of Land Rover's designers in 2012 and he was excited for the '15/'16 Defender coming tot he US, though he said it might be pushed a year or two for design and testing. This could very well be that push, which is quite unfortunate... if a manufacturer aided in the seizure of a vehicle I truly thought was legal in my country after spending a good deal of money, I would be very hesitant giving them my business ever again. | ||
| #222979 - in reply to #222908 |
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| 4x4abc Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico Vehicle(s): 02 G500 | RE: Read this now please hey Dave, the stuff you are complaining about has been put into law by the guys you and I elected this is not something somebody invented today what's wrong with your guns gone one day? your wife will appreciate that you have more time for her | ||
| #222982 - in reply to #222913 |
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| gbenzer Extreme Veteran Date registered: Dec 2006 Location: Georgia Vehicle(s): 2007 G-500, 2017 Audi Q7 Posts: 418  | RE: Read this now please "what wrong with your guns gone one day?" THE GOVERNMENT WILL STILL HAVE THEIRS! My wife and I have plenty of quality time, even at 68 and 69!  | ||
| #222985 - in reply to #222982 |
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