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Gurukid
Member
Date registered: Jul 2013
Location: Sarasota, Florida
Vehicle(s): 2003 G500
Posts: 21
| Wobble at 50MPH+ when it's cold. Seen it before, fixed it all, nothing works.
Hi Guys,
Wobble at 50MPH+ when it's cold. Seen it before, fixed it all, nothing works.
Car: 2003 Mercedes G500
Thanks for taking the time to read my post. First of all, I've seen and read all the threads in regards to the 50MPH "death wobble" that some of us seem to be experiencing on our Gs, and I have it. It's weird and I'll try my best to explain what it is and what I've done to fix it.
1) between 50mph-60mph when driving, if I hit a bump and/or i slightly turn the steering wheel, the car shakes violently - I feel like I'm going to die. This appears to only happen when it is cold outside.
2) this happens on both OEM wheels and aftermarket wheels
Steps I've done to fix the problem:
1) alignment & wheel balance
2) bought new tires
3) bought new rims after I thought the wheels were bent
4) changed inner and outer tie rod ends
5) the other tie rod bar thing (name escapes me, the one the steering damper is connected to)
6) change steering damper from "upgraded w463" to the "bilstein" solution
7) taken it to 10+ shops all of which cannot even feel it (it only happens when it's cold, and I'm in Florida so it's only in the evening/night right now
What else could I be missing? I'm at a loss here, I don't know what it could be. A million people seem to have this issue, I have the EXACT same issue as the others with the same wobble, however, changing the stabilizer bar did not solve it for me, nor did any of the listed above.
Thanks |
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03-Gwagen
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Western Pennsylvania
Vehicle(s): CLK63 Black Series, 2018 G63, 2016 GLE300d
Posts: 888
| RE: Wobble at 50MPH+ when it's cold. Seen it before, fixed it all, nothing works.
Had the same problem.
It was the stiff summer tires..
Winter tires cleared my issue.
One question.... did you Road Force Balance?
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Titus Pullo
Elite Veteran
Date registered: May 2007
Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada
Vehicle(s): '90 Wolf 240GD, '06 G270 CDI.
Posts: 1010
| Re: Wobble at 50MPH+ when it's cold. Seen it before, fixed it all, nothing works.
<p>Check your Panhard bar bushings - one of the most common reasons for this problem. A average mechanic should be able to diagnose it even without hoist.</p><p> </p><p>Balance issues are more noticeable at speeds over 110 km/h. Road force balance is not a magic cure for all problems.</p>
Edited by Titus Pullo 10/31/2014 10:49 PM
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Gurukid
Member
Date registered: Jul 2013
Location: Sarasota, Florida
Vehicle(s): 2003 G500
Posts: 21
| Re: Wobble at 50MPH+ when it's cold. Seen it before, fixed it all, nothing works.
Thanks guys, but sadly neither of those solutions will fix it s they've already been done... Changed panhard to the new updated version and bushings, also have brand new tires on two different sets of rims OEM and aftermarket... Any other ideas? |
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4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| Re: Wobble at 50MPH+ when it's cold. Seen it before, fixed it all, nothing works.
any modifications on your vehicle? |
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Gurukid
Member
Date registered: Jul 2013
Location: Sarasota, Florida
Vehicle(s): 2003 G500
Posts: 21
| Re: Wobble at 50MPH+ when it's cold. Seen it before, fixed it all, nothing works.
None at all, not until this happened. I now have a bilstein steering damper (the disco2 model), that's all, everything else is OEM. No suspension modifications at all... The only thing I haven't check are the shocks, but the wheel wobbles left and right, it's not jumping up and down, it's driving me crazy... Brand new tires will remedy the situation for a while, that makes sense, after a few thousand miles (barely 3k really), the front right tire will wobble again. I cannot imagine this is normal, nor can I believe people with G's deal with this as much as I hear without getting it fixed... Sure, the tires can go "out of round", but my alignment is on point, I even had 3 independent alignment shops verify in Sarasota. So why do they go out of round? No shaking during braking, so it's not the rotor... Shops are baffled, I've done work myself, then gave up and spent 1300 at the shop for all new components... picked it up, still shaking, nobody knows what to do.
Thanks,
Alex |
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Johnny Christensen
Veteran
Date registered: Sep 2010
Location: Denmark
Vehicle(s): GD290 W461
Posts: 202
| RE: Wobble at 50MPH+ when it's cold. Seen it before, fixed it all, nothing works.
How are your rubber bushings in the front control arms? I had a case of the death wobble caused from the rubber letting go of the outer casing.
A4603330314 is the part number, you need 4 of them.
EDIT: Graphic removed to be resized. |
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Gurukid
Member
Date registered: Jul 2013
Location: Sarasota, Florida
Vehicle(s): 2003 G500
Posts: 21
| Re: Wobble at 50MPH+ when it's cold. Seen it before, fixed it all, nothing works.
Those were not replaced to my knowledge. Is there a way to check without removing them? If not, I'll throw the car up on the jack tomorrow and check it out. Does the car need to be up in the air, or can I just put jack stands underneath it with the tires still on the floor?
Thanks,
Alex |
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DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
Posts: 9963
| RE: Wobble at 50MPH+ when it's cold. Seen it before, fixed it all, nothing works.
Johnny Christensen - 11/1/2014 3:08 AM
How are your rubber bushings in the front control arms? I had a case of the death wobble caused from the rubber letting go of the outer casing.
A4603330314 is the part number, you need 4 of them.
EDIT: Graphic removed to be resized.
+1 on this one. It would be my first guess at a diagnosis; but, even more importantly, I would include the bushings between the drag link and the body. 4X P/N: A.460.352.04.65. |
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| Re: Wobble at 50MPH+ when it's cold. Seen it before, fixed it all, nothing works.
Gurukid - 11/1/2014 3:42 AM
Those were not replaced to my knowledge. Is there a way to check without removing them? If not, I'll throw the car up on the jack tomorrow and check it out. Does the car need to be up in the air, or can I just put jack stands underneath it with the tires still on the floor?
Thanks,
Alex
I also have a 2003 G500 and I have been chasing multiple "vibration" issues, the wobble of death being one of them. I serially replaced all of the items you did plus I also replaced the shocks, the front trailing arm bushings and I adjusted the steering (pitman) arm pre-load. Each item made an incremental improvement (the tie rod ends and the drag link made no difference at all, but the ball joints were clearly on there way out), especially the new steering damper, but it was the front trailing arm bushings that made the most difference and finally killed the wobble of death. The G's buckboard-like near perpendicular steering geometry (only 5 degrees caster, 0 degrees camber, and 0 degrees toe) was designed for plowing through the Black Forest and was never really intended for extended highway cruising nor for full time 4 wheel drive like the later G's have. Because of this, everything that "holds" the axle in place must be just about perfect or the axle geometry will change under load and you will get the wobble.
I inspected the front trailing arm bushings while on the truck and they appeared to be fine, but when I removed the arms and could really look at them, it was obvious that the rubber had detached from the metal bushing spacers. The rubber was also much "softer" than the rubber in the new bushings.
The arms/bushings can, and in fact, must be done with the wheels on the ground, or at least the weight of the truck on the suspension. When I replaced the arm to chassis bushings, I used a set of roll-on ramps to get an additional 6 inches of so or working room which made it much easier. When I got to the arm to axle bushings, I had access to a friend's two post lift, so I raised the truck and set it back down on four jack stands placed on the axles at each corner. This effectively placed with weight of the truck on the suspension and allowed me to keep the two post just barley in contact with the chassis for safety - much torquing is involved with this job! Strangely enough, I think the ramps works better as they allowed the wheels to roll slightly while fitting the re-bushed arms. On my truck, there was a significant difference between the axle position with the new bushings which required some "convincing" with a spud wrench in order to get the bolts back in.
The whole job for the front four arm bushings took me about two hours. The night before, while waiting for dinner to come out of the oven, I turned Floobydust special tool number 000 000 00 02 on the lathe to make pressing the bushings easier.
edit: I almost forgot, have you checked the wheel bearing and king pin bearing free play? This should be effectively zero and any detectable play indicates a bearing issue which could also be a source of the wobble. It could also be the source of an expensive failure if let go too long.
Good luck and please keep us updated on your results.
- FD
Edited by Floobydust 11/1/2014 8:43 AM
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512bbi
Expert
Date registered: Jan 2007
Location: North western US and Europe
Vehicle(s): 05G55kge,Range rover classic,clk55amg,ML 430
Posts: 1313
| RE: Wobble at 50MPH+ when it's cold. Seen it before, fixed it all, nothing works.
The fact that all was good with new tires and then gone after some miles proves the largest part of your problem is the tires!!
Bushings(mostly trailling arm to chassis) need to be done often on the G as well as tire balance and rotation .
The same applies to steering shocks.
If all is good (tie rods,panhard rod bushings,decent shocks etc) with the basics the two biggest contributing factors to the wobble on the G besides tires is the two items mentioned ....STEERING SHOCK AND BUSHINGS.
After a total bushing change is best to change the trailling arm to the chassis ones OFTEN as they are the ones allowing the movement that PRODUCES the wobble.
For the wobble to stay away after the above is done, is required that one learns and understands what kind of tires the G needs to stay wobble free!
ROUND,road force no more than 15 pounds per tire....VERY IMPORTANT,balanced perfectly with out too much weight and round rims.
Again maintain the tires with balance and rotation often.
Great tire tech willing to go the extra mile is the remedy here!
To obtain tires like that you need a shop that will make you a set out of mounting and dismounting as much as 8-9 tires and then be willing to balance and rotate often....you skip these steps on tire set up and you can chase your tail all the time with small improvements changing steering shocks and bushings
So again
TIRES DONE RIGHT FIRST and then steering shock and bushings.
We should do a thread on tires being round and road force issues before we can balance them perfect.
Mario
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512bbi
Expert
Date registered: Jan 2007
Location: North western US and Europe
Vehicle(s): 05G55kge,Range rover classic,clk55amg,ML 430
Posts: 1313
| RE: Wobble at 50MPH+ when it's cold. Seen it before, fixed it all, nothing works.
I am willing to bet if one buys a brand new G and puts on some bad tires ,there will be wobble!
The G is build to have play at the axles to protect it self from its best feature ....the lockers.
The arms to the chassis little bushings are made to flex A LOT and go bad often.
When they are bad they loose their shape and ELASTICITY which is very low by design to begin with, so if not new, they allow even more movement so even a slightly out of round or fifty pound road force tire bounce will cause the wobble.......
Mario |
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03-Gwagen
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Western Pennsylvania
Vehicle(s): CLK63 Black Series, 2018 G63, 2016 GLE300d
Posts: 888
| RE: Wobble at 50MPH+ when it's cold. Seen it before, fixed it all, nothing works.
512bbi - 11/1/2014 9:45 AM
TIRES DONE RIGHT FIRST and then steering shock and bushings.
Ditto.
What tire size are you running? Is it changed from original? In other words.... what is the wheel size?
What tire make/model are you using? |
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4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| RE: Wobble at 50MPH+ when it's cold. Seen it before, fixed it all, nothing works.
512bbi - 11/1/2014 7:55 AM
The G is build to have play at the axles to protect it self from its best feature ....the lockers.
Mario
what is play at the axles? |
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chris505
Date registered: May 2007
Location: San Francisco
Vehicle(s): '79 280E/'80 280GE/'00 G500
| Re: Wobble at 50MPH+ when it's cold. Seen it before, fixed it all, nothing works.
Gurukid - 10/31/2014 11:18 PM
...Brand new tires will remedy the situation for a while, that makes sense, after a few thousand miles (barely 3k really), the front right tire will wobble again. I cannot imagine this is normal...
It's very normal to need to re-balance new tires after 2k miles.
I have 2 Gs that have zero wobble, and they both have obviously bad trailing arm bushings (some are completely delaminated where you can see through them) my panhard arm bushings are all original items too, last month I drove around both Gs without a steering shock and the only result was very light steering feel, zero wobble.
I have had death wobble in the past (started after new tires had 1000 miles) and had to go through 6 different tire shops before I found one that could effectively balance my tires, yet all these ineffective tire shops gave me printouts showing my tires were balanced within 'X' number of grams/lbs (very good #s) and they were all adamant that my axles were bent or this or that was wrong with my G causing the vibes. And I almost believed it till member Ewalberg finally fixed his wobble (after a year of blind suspension part renewal) by using a local Bay area specialty tire shop (http://www.customalignment.com), I followed suit and BINGO, no more wobble.
I felt like going back to all those big box tire stores(discount/Americas tire/ les shwab/Goodyear) that I wasted time and $ in before and telling them that they are idiots!
Because of this 3 month long endeavor to balance my tires (death wobbling the whole time) I now assume nearly all tire balance jobs y'all wobbling G drivers are getting are not correct. By my reckoning, 84% of tire shops I used can't/won't properly calibrate their hunter road force balancing machines, that figure may carry over to areas outside of CA too so don't just accept it's not the tires and start throwing new parts at your G.
The G is more sensitive to tire balance than nearly anything else on the road, I tried balancing beads, equal, and the only thing that worked was road force balancing.
The real trick seems to be finding a RF machine that's perfectly calibrated all the time, this is why the balancing weight numbers dont really tell the whole story, if the machine is not 100% calibrated it could give vastly differing RF numbers than the same tire on a perfectly calibrated machine.
These RF balancing machines are super expensive, extremely sensitive and very easily damaged, so I speculate that the people working at these 'corporate' tire shops may not treat the machines with the same care as my high-end mom and pop tire shop that caters to private Porsche/Ferrari race teams.
There is little incentive for these large tire shops to keep their RF machines operating at 100% when every car on the road (besides our Gs) will completely mask small tire in-balance situations.
Edited by chris505 11/1/2014 11:48 AM
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Titus Pullo
Elite Veteran
Date registered: May 2007
Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada
Vehicle(s): '90 Wolf 240GD, '06 G270 CDI.
Posts: 1010
| Re: Wobble at 50MPH+ when it's cold. Seen it before, fixed it all, nothing works.
every one has different issues, you are not alone  as the commercial says.
With 35" MT tires, balanced without RF, I am driving all day long without any DW. Thats on the beater.
What I am trying to say is that tire balance is part of the problem, RF is overrated and going to a box store for a precise service is like going to McDonalds for gourmet dinner. |
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| RE: Wobble at 50MPH+ when it's cold. Seen it before, fixed it all, nothing works.
The G is build to have play at the axles to protect it self from its best feature ....the lockers.
Mario
I am curious about this also. While I have banished the wobble of death, I am still chasing the thrumming vibration/noise issue. To that end, I have looked at the backlash on the front and rear diffs and noted that there seems to be quite a bit of black lash on the front diff. Note that the backlash that I am seeing is not in the pinion to ring gear interface, but rather it seems to be in either the spider gear assembly or the axle to differential carrier to spline interface. I'm not sure how much backlash is normal for the front axle (with the pinion locked and holding one wheel, you can rotate the other wheel about 10 degrees before the backlash is taken up), but I was wondering if it might be there on purpose in order to facilitate locker engagement.
Edited by Floobydust 11/1/2014 12:10 PM
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4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| RE: Wobble at 50MPH+ when it's cold. Seen it before, fixed it all, nothing works.
spider gears in the differential usually have quite a bit of play
as long as the pinion to ring gear is within spec (if it feels tight, it's good) you are good to go |
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| RE: Wobble at 50MPH+ when it's cold. Seen it before, fixed it all, nothing works.
I found that there were two aspects to the death wobble. The first occurred while driving straight ahead when traveling at 60+. This was definitely a tire balance issue that required several attempts by the tire shop (specialty shop, not big box store) to dial in. The second type would not occur unless the steering wheel was turned at speed like when changing lanes. This happened even after tire balance corrected the first aspect. Replacing the steering damper (I have the OEM version) and the trailing arm bushings cured the second aspect of the DW and now all is well with respect to the DW. |
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| RE: Wobble at 50MPH+ when it's cold. Seen it before, fixed it all, nothing works.
Thank you. The pinion is nice and tight. |
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