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roschoen
Member
Date registered: Jan 2014
Location: The Netherlands
Vehicle(s): S211 320CDI ('03) and W460 280GE ('81)
Posts: 24
| wiring throttle body m104
hi there
i want to use a spafter market ecu after my engine swap from m110 to m104 and am preparing this now.
i m pretty far in preparing for the execution but the function of the throttle body/eta is not completely clear to me yet.
does anyone know the exact function of the 6 wires that come out of it (see attached pic). which ones are for throttle position for example and which one for idle control(?)... or other functions
thank, Rob
 (image.jpg)
Attachments
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 image.jpg (93KB - 3 downloads)
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roschoen
Member
Date registered: Jan 2014
Location: The Netherlands
Vehicle(s): S211 320CDI ('03) and W460 280GE ('81)
Posts: 24
| Re: wiring throttle body m104
just found out by measuring that the yellow one reacts to the throttle position...
4.3V at closed throttle decreasing when opening
the rest of 'm i have no clue
voltage 0, 5 or 4.3 Volt stable on the other wires.
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AlanMcR
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, CA, Los Altos
Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL
Posts: 3500
| RE: wiring throttle body m104
Working off of the drawing: BK & BU drive the motor, probably 12V across the pins one way or the other to move the vane back and forth VT is a regulated +5 GY is GND or 0V YE & WT are the positional outputs. There are often two complementary outputs, where one acts as a check on the other (throttle position is important). Probably 0-5V with a dead band on each end. 0.7->4.3 would be a pretty normal range. YE and WT may operate in an complementary manner (as YE goes up, WT goes down). IF WT doesn't change, that might be the problem the original ECU was having.
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roschoen
Member
Date registered: Jan 2014
Location: The Netherlands
Vehicle(s): S211 320CDI ('03) and W460 280GE ('81)
Posts: 24
| Re: wiring throttle body m104
thanks, great help
i'll do some more measurements to check
so far i noticed that WT did not react to throttle position and everything came out a well functioning car... |
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AlanMcR
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, CA, Los Altos
Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL
Posts: 3500
| RE: wiring throttle body m104
That is what the diagram says. Then again, the factory engine wiring diagram for my G (in the WIS) is wrong. The other thing that the second output is often used for is to signal idle-position or wide-open-throttle. That isn't what the diagram says though.
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Roly
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Australia
Vehicle(s): 1999 G500
Posts: 661
| RE: wiring throttle body m104
The schematic is the same as the m113 actuator which I have values for. Can't find the same document for the m104.
These figures are when the unit is wired in situ.
EU-EK. 0.2-2.3v ignition on, 1.0-2.5v at idle.
YE-GY. 4.0-4.6v at idle, decreases as throttle opened.
WT-GY. 0.3-0.9v at idle, increases as throttle opened
VT-GY 4.75-5.25v
The HFM shares many similar components to the ME system so I think the values above would be the same.
Have you also worked out the TPS (Pedal sensor) wiring? |
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roschoen
Member
Date registered: Jan 2014
Location: The Netherlands
Vehicle(s): S211 320CDI ('03) and W460 280GE ('81)
Posts: 24
| Re: wiring throttle body m104
thanks, i'll be able to measure my own values next weekend....too dark now at night.
what do you mean with your last question? do you mean the fly-by-wire part? mt throttle is cable operated anyway
rgds |
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| RE: wiring throttle body m104
I'm not sure if it's relevant, but attached is a PDF shows the US version of the M104 ETA in the W124 application.
For what it's worth, R1 and R2 are the throttle shaft position potentiometers. Pin 3 is Vref and Pin 14 is Ref-Ground. Pin 1 is the voltage output from R1 which goes down with increasing throttle opening and Pin 2 in the voltage output from R2 which goes up with increasing throttle opening. With this complimentary output, the ECU can check for faulty potentiometers, faulty mechanical linkage to the throttle shaft and faults in the wiring harness. Wiring harness problems are common in throttle bodies made in the acco-junk wiring era (~1992 to 1997).
S1 is the WOT switch and S2 is the idle position switch (Pins 6, 8, 10). Pins 12 and 13 feed the actuator motor engagement clutch coil while Pins 1 and 11 are the actuator motor feed.
Edit: If you are just going to use the ETA as just a throttle body and throttle position sensor (TPS) with a third party ECU, you will want to connect Pin 3 to that ECU's Vref and Pine 14 to that ECU's signal ground (which may also be the power ground for some ECUs). Connect Pin 2 to the third party ECU TPS signal input. Hopefully that ECU will have a programmable setting for the dead band at the top and bottom of the throttle travel.
- FD
Edited by Floobydust 11/24/2014 6:11 PM
Attachments
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ETA-ISC.pdf (36KB - 14 downloads)
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Roly
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Australia
Vehicle(s): 1999 G500
Posts: 661
| Re: wiring throttle body m104
Yes I meant the accelerator pedal sensor. You will need one to control the input to the throttle valve actuator. |
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roschoen
Member
Date registered: Jan 2014
Location: The Netherlands
Vehicle(s): S211 320CDI ('03) and W460 280GE ('81)
Posts: 24
| RE: wiring throttle body m104
mine looks a bit simpler... it does not have the S1 and S2 switch. Just the 6 wires as in my picture.
does the motor move the throttle valve directly or is it operating a Idle Air Val ve or something alike?
by the way ...what does WOT mean??
my intention is to connect my wire loom to a third party ECU (probably Adaptronic) and TPS function i could make available as you described with pins 2, 3 and 14.
More worried i am about how to get to idle smootly with an aftermarket ECU since driveability and smoothness are the most important factors to me.
can't get it to work with the stock ECU since that needs all kind of other info (immobilizer, speed signals, ...) to give an injection and ignition signal |
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roschoen
Member
Date registered: Jan 2014
Location: The Netherlands
Vehicle(s): S211 320CDI ('03) and W460 280GE ('81)
Posts: 24
| Re: wiring throttle body m104
throttle is cable operated... didn't see any sensor in the pedal compartiment...
rgds |
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| RE: wiring throttle body m104
roschoen - 11/25/2014 4:37 AM
mine looks a bit simpler... it does not have the S1 and S2 switch. Just the 6 wires as in my picture.
does the motor move the throttle valve directly or is it operating a Idle Air Val ve or something alike?
by the way ...what does WOT mean??
my intention is to connect my wire loom to a third party ECU (probably Adaptronic) and TPS function i could make available as you described with pins 2, 3 and 14.
More worried i am about how to get to idle smootly with an aftermarket ECU since driveability and smoothness are the most important factors to me.
can't get it to work with the stock ECU since that needs all kind of other info (immobilizer, speed signals, ...) to give an injection and ignition signal
The factory M104 with HFM uses a throttle position sensor (also a potentiometer) to determine how far to open the throttle butterfly using the motor. The M104 ECU also uses the motor to control idle speed as well, so there is no separate mechanical adjustment or idle air control vale/motor. For you application, none of this will apply.
As i understand your posts, you are going to use the ETA as just a throttle butterfly and a TPS. Because idle speed is controlled by the M104 ETA via the ETA motor, you will have to provide some other arrangement for idle speed control. This could either be a mechanical idle speed set screw that you fabricate and add to the ETA somewhere or you could add a separate air bypass via an idle speed control valve/motor. For this option, you could use something like the IAC from the M103 motor and connect it to the ECU. I have done a lot of FI conversions and have also characterized the M103 IAC: (mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w124/503103-idle-air-control-valve-airflow-versus-control-voltage.html)
I looked up the ECU you are proposing (www.adaptronic.com.au/product/e440d/) and I think it will work well for you with either a fixed idle set screw or the M103 IAC:
Idle control strategies:
Open loop values with a 32-entry temperature table
Target idle speeds with 32-entry temperature table
Idle effort correction for air temperature
Idle-up functionality based on A/C request, electrical loads, power steering
Can adjust ignition timing for closed loop idle control, as well as various types of idle control valves (2 wire, 3 wire, 6 wire stepper, and 4 wire stepper using an external driver available separately)
It looks like you can calibrate for the dead band as well: Throttle position (TPS) input - 0-5V (5V supplied by ECU), 2-point calibration
I think the mechanical idle speed control would be the simplest to implement, but also the least accurate and stable over time.
As for the Idle and WOT (Wide Open Throttle) switches, you check your ETA with an ohmmeter if you have the 14 pin cable. If you don't have them, it still looks like the ECU can be programmed around that.
Edit (after thought): You could also obtain a 1994/95 M104 ECU, harness, and Idle speed module. ECUs from these years do not have the immobilizer function of the later ECUs.
Edit2: You will also need to use some of the programmable ECU outputs to activate the cam timing solenoids and the intake manifold resonance vale. Without these, the M104 will not perform like it should.
Good luck!
- FD
Edited by Floobydust 11/25/2014 10:35 AM
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roschoen
Member
Date registered: Jan 2014
Location: The Netherlands
Vehicle(s): S211 320CDI ('03) and W460 280GE ('81)
Posts: 24
| RE: wiring throttle body m104
Floobydust - 11/25/2014 3:49 PM
roschoen - 11/25/2014 4:37 AM
mine looks a bit simpler... it does not have the S1 and S2 switch. Just the 6 wires as in my picture.
does the motor move the throttle valve directly or is it operating a Idle Air Val ve or something alike?
by the way ...what does WOT mean??
my intention is to connect my wire loom to a third party ECU (probably Adaptronic) and TPS function i could make available as you described with pins 2, 3 and 14.
More worried i am about how to get to idle smootly with an aftermarket ECU since driveability and smoothness are the most important factors to me.
can't get it to work with the stock ECU since that needs all kind of other info (immobilizer, speed signals, ...) to give an injection and ignition signal
The factory M104 with HFM uses a throttle position sensor (also a potentiometer ) to determine how far to open the throttle butterfly using the motor. The M104 ECU also uses the motor to control idle speed as well, so there is no separate mechanical adjustment or idle air control vale/motor. For you application, none of this will apply.
As i understand your posts, you are going to use the ETA as just a throttle butterfly and a TPS. Because idle speed is controlled by the M104 ETA via the ETA motor, you will have to provide some other arrangement for idle speed control. This could either be a mechanical idle speed set screw that you fabricate and add to the ETA somewhere or you could add a separate air bypass via an idle speed control valve/motor. For this option, you could use something like the IAC from the M103 motor and connect it to the ECU. I have done a lot of FI conversions and have also characterized the M103 IAC: (mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w124/503103-idle-air-control-valve-airflow-versus-control-voltage.html )
I looked up the ECU you are proposing (www.adaptronic.com.au/product/e440d/ ) and I think it will work well for you with either a fixed idle set screw or the M103 IAC:
Idle control strategies:
Open loop values with a 32-entry temperature table
Target idle speeds with 32-entry temperature table
Idle effort correction for air temperature
Idle-up functionality based on A/C request, electrical loads, power steering
Can adjust ignition timing for closed loop idle control, as well as various types of idle control valves (2 wire, 3 wire, 6 wire stepper, and 4 wire stepper using an external driver available separately )
It looks like you can calibrate for the dead band as well: Throttle position (TPS) input - 0-5V (5V supplied by ECU), 2-point calibration
I think the mechanical idle speed control would be the simplest to implement, but also the least accurate and stable over time.
As for the Idle and WOT (Wide Open Throttle ) switches, you check your ETA with an ohmmeter if you have the 14 pin cable. If you don't have them, it still looks like the ECU can be programmed around that.
Edit (after thought ): You could also obtain a 1994/95 M104 ECU, harness, and Idle speed module. ECUs from these years do not have the immobilizer function of the later ECUs.
Edit2: You will also need to use some of the programmable ECU outputs to activate the cam timing solenoids and the intake manifold resonance vale. Without these, the M104 will not perform like it should.
Good luck!
- FD
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thanks FD for your valuable contribution and the link to the IAC info.
I'm still investigating ways to use the original ECU or go for your suggestion of the w124 harness + ecu.
if this won't work or is also a lot of hassle and not very reliable then Adaptronics it will be.
One of the appealing features of Adaptronic is that it is supposed to be able to use the stock triggering mechanism (the three magnet/inductors on the flywheel) so i won't have to use an external trigger wheel because that seems sensitive to mud and water in a 4x4 i'd say...
Ecu outputs i will use for cam timing and air resonancem should be to hard to implement.
I hoped that an aftermarket ECU like adaptr. could also operate the idle motor of my m104 but that is not the case i derive from your message?
TPS function i have verified so minimum requirement is in place i'd say. Although i understood that lot of aftermarket ECU simply use the Manifold Air Pressure instead of the TPS to calculate fuel volumes.
I'll do some measurements on the ETA later this week.It is a 6 wire connector by the way, similar to the picture i attached in my initial message on this topic.
Dit you do FI conversions on Mercedes engines as well?
Rob. |
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roschoen
Member
Date registered: Jan 2014
Location: The Netherlands
Vehicle(s): S211 320CDI ('03) and W460 280GE ('81)
Posts: 24
| Re: wiring throttle body m104
PS... what is the 'dead band' in relation to TPS/idle control? |
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AlanMcR
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, CA, Los Altos
Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL
Posts: 3500
| Re: wiring throttle body m104
roschoen - 11/26/2014 1:43 AM PS... what is the 'dead band' in relation to TPS/idle control? The sensor is fed with 0.0v on one side and 5.0v on the other. It would be difficult to get the mechanical end of travel to exactly match a 0v and 5v output. Instead, the design of the sensor makes it so that the output voltage doesn't go quite to either end of the scale (ex: 0.7v -> 4.3v). The electronics have no trouble calibrating themselves to understand what the actual min and max values are. The gaps on either end are often called a dead band.
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roschoen
Member
Date registered: Jan 2014
Location: The Netherlands
Vehicle(s): S211 320CDI ('03) and W460 280GE ('81)
Posts: 24
| Re: wiring throttle body m104
thanks! clear now |
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Floobydust
Veteran
Date registered: Mar 2014
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Vehicle(s): 1995 E320 Cabrio, 2003 G500, 2000 SL500, 1980 TR8
Posts: 284
| Re: wiring throttle body m104
AlanMcR - 11/26/2014 12:26 PM
roschoen - 11/26/2014 1:43 AM PS... what is the 'dead band' in relation to TPS/idle control? The sensor is fed with 0.0v on one side and 5.0v on the other. It would be difficult to get the mechanical end of travel to exactly match a 0v and 5v output. Instead, the design of the sensor makes it so that the output voltage doesn't go quite to either end of the scale (ex: 0.7v -> 4.3v). The electronics have no trouble calibrating themselves to understand what the actual min and max values are. The gaps on either end are often called a dead band.
This is also used a diagnostic feature as well. By using a range of a little more than 0 and a little less than full voltage (Vref), the ECU will be able to detect a wiring fault to ground or a fault to Vref since these are not allowable values in normal operation.
roschoen
I'm still investigating ways to use the original ECU or go for your suggestion of the w124 harness + ecu.
[snip]
Did you do FI conversions on Mercedes engines as well?
Rob,
The other half of my car addiction is vintage British sports cars (Jagular, Triumph, MG, etc) and this is the area I have done the FI work. Most of it has been converting cars that were built with those wonderfully reliable (uhmm) Stromberg or Zenith carburetors or the Lucas (makers of total darkness) FI systems. MB systems are too well engineered and too reliable to require such extreme measures, except, perhaps, in the case of an engine transplant.
I still think you should give a look at the W124 ECU, etc. MB made a boat load of these so you should be able to find something relatively easily. This would make your truck more serviceable in the future as all major parts would be MB. It would be a bummer to have to send the ECU back to Australia for service (and then find out they don't make it any more). In addition, it can be very difficult and time consuming to get a speed-density system dialed in properly because they depend on the engine pumping efficiency, a parameter that must be "learned" (or derived through testing) and stored in fuel tables. Mass airflow systems like the MB are much more accurate to start with as the mass airflow design inherently measures the engine pumping efficiency.
- FD
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roschoen
Member
Date registered: Jan 2014
Location: The Netherlands
Vehicle(s): S211 320CDI ('03) and W460 280GE ('81)
Posts: 24
| Re: wiring throttle body m104
thanks
i've been looking into w124 ecus a little bit today but sofar i didnt find any that for sure guaranteed there was no immobilizer required to get it working. besides the fact that there are many different versions... but sure would be a good way to go. I'll talk to a local Mercedes breaker later this week what kind of parts he got and i can do some kind of trial and error with
I've the same addiction for English cars so when a possible conversion of my m104 is succesful i'm gonna do the same on my jaguar xjs cabrio to get rid of the lucas parts! |
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roschoen
Member
Date registered: Jan 2014
Location: The Netherlands
Vehicle(s): S211 320CDI ('03) and W460 280GE ('81)
Posts: 24
| Re: wiring throttle body m104 -->camshaft + resonance flap
hi all,
it's been a while but i got the engine running in my W460
it's running pretty well using the original ECU with a Julie emulator to override the immobilizer
most of it works fine, only thing i do not have working at this moment is the variable camshaft and resonance flap that should be activated at around 3500RPM
i'm a bit reluctant to take any risks of blowing up my ECU but i'm also very curious if it makes a big difference when this functionally is operational.
Question is if i could just put 12V DC (fused) on both camshaft and resonance flap and everything works fine? wires to ECU are connected
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