Welcome Guest. ( logon | register )   
FAQ Member List Albums Today's Posts Search

PointedThree :  Vans, Trucks, SUVs and Other Forums : G-Class : First Engine - 240,000 Miles

Page 1 of 1 1
First Engine - 240,000 Miles
Topic Tools Message Format
Author
Posted 12/15/2014 3:51 PM
Braingears
Expert




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: St Petersburg, FL
Vehicle(s): G320 & ML320
Posts: 1450
1000
First Engine - 240,000 Miles

My engine is has made it 240,000 miles and is now on it's last leg. I have not removed the head to see it's damaged the piston yet. At this point I have lots of "blow-by" when I remove the oil cap while the engine is running (like a choo choo train...).

Rather than replace/rebuild the head and/or piston, I'm considering replacing the long-block engine. I can get an engine from a '96 E320 for around $1600. I already know that I'm going to need to swap my oil pan, oil sump, water pump, and external accessories.

Have any of you already done this (with the G320 M104.996 engine)?

Are there any other concerns that I should have?

Can I swap with the AMG 3.6L engine and ECU (If I can find one)? 

 

 

#225729
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Author
Posted 12/15/2014 6:18 PM
gerryvz
Extreme Veteran




Date registered: Apr 2014
Location: Annapolis, MD
Vehicle(s): 1994 G320, 1989 560SEC, 1994 E500 (W124)
Posts: 336
300
Re: First Engine - 240,000 Miles

You should only need to renew the top end. The bottom end on these engines is near indestructible. Pull the head, have a knowledgeable machine shop work it over (test it for cracks, valve seats, etc.) and renew all of the soft parts and hoses on the top end.

Easiest if you pull the engine and do it on a stand, but easy enough to do in the truck as well.

Complete/comprehensive M104 top-end rebuild HOW-TO is here: http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5082

You can swap with a C36 AMG engine, yes. It will run with the stock ECU that you have, too, if you get the 104.992 AMG variant. But there are two types of C36 powertrains: one that uses the 722.3 transmission, and the other with the 722.6 (five=speed, electronically controlled). If you go with the latter it's more work because of the electronics.

Cheers,
Gerry
#225730 - in reply to #225729
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Author
Posted 12/15/2014 8:37 PM
Braingears
Expert




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: St Petersburg, FL
Vehicle(s): G320 & ML320
Posts: 1450
1000
RE: First Engine - 240,000 Miles

The local shop that I use has an engine from a '95 S320 (with 112,000 miles) for $1200. He will do the labor of the engine swap, accessory change, and replace all of the major seals for another $1200. So that would be $2400 for the engine swap including labor. While I have the engine pulled, I will change all of the hoses and hard to reach items at the same time.

It would probably be a good time to rebuild the seals for the steering as well since I can easily get to it.

What do you all think? For the cost of the replacement head and labor, I can get the whole engine... 

 

 

 

#225731 - in reply to #225729
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Author
Posted 12/15/2014 8:54 PM
Braingears
Expert




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: St Petersburg, FL
Vehicle(s): G320 & ML320
Posts: 1450
1000
Re: First Engine - 240,000 Miles

In the morning, I will see if I can find an AMG C36 Engine. Well my oil pan, manifolds, and accessories fit on that engine?
#225732 - in reply to #225730
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Author
Posted 12/15/2014 10:12 PM
gerryvz
Extreme Veteran




Date registered: Apr 2014
Location: Annapolis, MD
Vehicle(s): 1994 G320, 1989 560SEC, 1994 E500 (W124)
Posts: 336
300
Re: First Engine - 240,000 Miles

Yes, everything will fit on that engine from a 104.996 as found in the G320. It's a direct bolt-in.

These motors are definitely out there and enough C36s were imported (and MANY cars wrecked by idiot drivers) that used C36 motors can be had for $1,000-1,500 MAX. It's NOT a huge deal to remove the motor yourself -- just borrow or buy a Harbor Fright cherry picker for a couple hundred dollars to pull the motor. I think the HFM computers can be sourced in Germany for not too much dough - perhaps a forum member can help you, or a judicious/constant search of eBay.de

The good thing about the C36 motor is that it gives you 60-70 more HP, and more torque, which is badly needed for the G320. It's some durned good bang for the buck. I've already sourced a C36 motor myself, which I will be purchasing from the seller around the middle of next year, when he replaces it with a twin-turbo M104 for a project he is doing. And I intend to replace mine as well (after completely refurbishing it).

I am in the process myself of doing comparison research on the G36 and the pedestrian M104.996 to see exactly the parts that are needed for acquisition and for direct change-over. The majority of things will switch right over, though. The crossover air tube is larger, if I remember correctly, and indeed the oil pump and sump are deeper, so would need to be changed.

Certainly redoing the top end of your existing M104 is an option though. They are easy to work on, parts are cheap and available, and it's a fun DIY job actually. No expensive special tools are required, though a 12-point XZN socket is required for the head bolts (best to get from MB; they are under $20).

If the engine comes out of the truck, it's HIGHLY recommended to change ALL soft parts underhood, including the power steering hoses, everything going to and from the radiator, heater hoses, motor mounts, transmission mount, and so forth.

You ought to be able to source a used C36 powertrain with little problem. The "pedestrian" boards such as MBWorld, PeachParts, 190Revolution.net and Banzworld are good places to hang out because that's where a lot of C36 (or former C36) snapperheads (owners) tend to hang out.

Cheers,
Gerry
#225734 - in reply to #225729
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Author
Posted 12/15/2014 11:17 PM
H1LM002G55
Expert




Date registered: Mar 2010
Location: S Florida / Geneva / Jeddah
Vehicle(s): 500 GE, G55, LM002, H1
Posts: 1796
1000
Re: First Engine - 240,000 Miles

I think I know where to get a motor...PM sent to you.

As far as who does the work...That matters.

I would take it to Arnt at Europa Auto or Steve B. at Continental Imports in Gainesville.
Additionally, you could always take it to Jono at BlueRidgeMB in Atlanta, GA.

Keep in mind, by traveling a little, you may save some $$$ on labor rates as they are often dependent on the area in which you are having the work performed.

These shops listed above are tops. I have had dealings with all 3 and they are excellent.
#225735 - in reply to #225729
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Author
Posted 12/15/2014 11:26 PM
H1LM002G55
Expert




Date registered: Mar 2010
Location: S Florida / Geneva / Jeddah
Vehicle(s): 500 GE, G55, LM002, H1
Posts: 1796
1000
Re: First Engine - 240,000 Miles

Make sure the C36 motor was not abused...The C36 was the "first" official production AMG vehicle brought into the U.S. if I recall correctly.

#225736 - in reply to #225729
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Author
Posted 12/16/2014 1:38 AM
gerryvz
Extreme Veteran




Date registered: Apr 2014
Location: Annapolis, MD
Vehicle(s): 1994 G320, 1989 560SEC, 1994 E500 (W124)
Posts: 336
300
Re: First Engine - 240,000 Miles

+1 on Steve Brotherton at Continental Imports, but ESPECIALLY Jono at Blue Ridge MB in the Atlanta area. You can reach him via email at jono@blueridgemb.com I correspond with him several times per week and he logs in several times a day on my forum. Jono is moving to a much larger, new shop next spring/summer.
#225738 - in reply to #225729
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Author
Posted 12/16/2014 2:26 AM
H1LM002G55
Expert




Date registered: Mar 2010
Location: S Florida / Geneva / Jeddah
Vehicle(s): 500 GE, G55, LM002, H1
Posts: 1796
1000
Re: First Engine - 240,000 Miles

gerryvz - 12/16/2014 1:38 AM

+1 on Steve Brotherton at Continental Imports, but ESPECIALLY Jono at Blue Ridge MB in the Atlanta area. You can reach him via email at jono@blueridgemb.com I correspond with him several times per week and he logs in several times a day on my forum. Jono is moving to a much larger, new shop next spring/summer.



I agree. Jono at BlueRidge MB will have a better background on the AMG 3.6 Motor. Though this swap should not be that complicated.
Jono is very pleasant to deal with and is very enthusiastic. He routinely supports MANY MB forums such as the Mercedes Club/Star forum, Benzworld, Peachparts, etc...He is extremely generous and kind in supporting the pedestrian, public forums and contributes his vast expertise in an open-source manner.

Arnt Johansen at Europa Auto I selected to do the preventative maintenance timing chain work on the 500GE. The reason being, Arnt knows the Euro cars well since he was once a mechanic in Norway and Germany before becoming the top mechanic for a well known RI/ICI (U.S. Registered Importer of foreign cars). And, Noels's is (practically) next door to Europa Auto. I find Noel to be professional and highly competent. There is one member on here who had a Diesel G and Noel's was given the task of rebuilding the engine and the deal went sour somehow. Arnt did the work on the 500GE and Noel came by for moral support and technical recommendations. While I feel bad for the deal that went sour for our Diesel G member, Noel does have the best reputation out of the companies specializing in Mercedes engine rebuilding in my opinion.

Steve B. at Continental Imports is a Master Guild Technician (Arnt has Master Guild Technicians on staff). So these are amongst the best Mercedes subject matter experts around.
Gainesville sees less exotica compared to Arnt and Jono, but they are highly competent and follow the German approach to Mercedes service. They RTFM and follow the book like engineers.

A lot can go wrong with a re-build. Welding aluminum is not that pleasant. They are going to have to deck the heads. If this gets outsourced to a machine-shop that does not know what they are doing, it will create more problems.

So, choose your contractor wisely, and make sure that they choose their subcontractors wisely as well. Call, explain what you want done, get feedback. Then decide.

Please post pictures and technical information and discoveries along the way. Many members are interested in this conversion.

Years ago, AMG and Brabus made a good deal of 3,6L G-Class models. Renntech was also performing this work for Europa International many years ago as well.

Edited by H1LM002G55 12/16/2014 2:33 AM
#225739 - in reply to #225738
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Author
Posted 12/16/2014 8:17 AM
gerryvz
Extreme Veteran




Date registered: Apr 2014
Location: Annapolis, MD
Vehicle(s): 1994 G320, 1989 560SEC, 1994 E500 (W124)
Posts: 336
300
Re: First Engine - 240,000 Miles

Jono doesn't hang at most of the pedestrian forums anymore (Banzworld, PeachParts) because the folks at Benzworld W126 turned on him (like they have with many knowledgeable folks over the years, who just end up leaving and going elsewhere) and for lack of time. The guy is BUSY.

 

I only know of Steve by reputation but it's dang good. Either guy as well as Europa Auto is going to have good machine-shop contacts who are competent to do the job. When I had my own M117 and M104 heads done, I asked around to find out who all of the best indy shops and dealerships here in Houston go to. It came back almost unanimously that the go-go machine shop for Benz motors in Houston is Scroggins Machine.

 

I'm sure that most every medium or large city has at least one "go to" machine shop for Benzes. When I lived in Portland, Oregon it was Bearing Service Company, located on the edge of the Pearl District downtown.

Cheers, Gerry



Edited by gerryvz 12/16/2014 8:18 AM
#225740 - in reply to #225729
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Author
Posted 2/20/2015 6:46 PM
Braingears
Expert




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: St Petersburg, FL
Vehicle(s): G320 & ML320
Posts: 1450
1000
RE: First Engine - 240,000 Miles

I have not yet pulled the trigger on swapping the engine yet. Has anyone here swapped their M104.996 with an engine from the sedans? I already know many of the parts on the engine are different, and will have to be swapped out, For example, the water pump is different, and will need to be swapped with new gaskets.

Will I be able to re-use any of the bolt-on parts that will come with the replacement engine that has less miles? Fuel Rail, Sensors, Intake Manifold, or am I only going to replace the block and head? I would like to take advantage of as many parts as possible from an engine that has less than 100K miles.

I also have no idea what the differences are between '95 / '96 / '97 / '98 engines from the sedans and how they will compare with mine.

  

#226827 - in reply to #225729
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Author
Posted 2/27/2015 11:20 PM
Braingears
Expert




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: St Petersburg, FL
Vehicle(s): G320 & ML320
Posts: 1450
1000
RE: First Engine - 240,000 Miles

So I've learned a lot in the past week or so, and have found at least five 3.2L M104 engines that can be used. 

Now I need help finding finding a good 3.6L AMG engine. So far I've had no luck finding one...

#226981 - in reply to #225729
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Author
Posted 2/28/2015 9:21 AM
gerryvz
Extreme Veteran




Date registered: Apr 2014
Location: Annapolis, MD
Vehicle(s): 1994 G320, 1989 560SEC, 1994 E500 (W124)
Posts: 336
300
Re: First Engine - 240,000 Miles

The M104 changed in a lot of ways from the model year 1996, when it went into the W210 models. You'd be better off using one from a 1993-1995 W124 model as a base.

Are you intending to retain your existing transmission? My reason for asking is that there were two versions of the 3.6L AMG M104 engine. The earlier versions used the near-identical 722.3 four-speed automatic transmission as the G320, while the later 3.6L motors used the five-speed 722.6 automatics.

So if you got your hands on a later 3.6L motor, you'd also have to swap the transmission and all associated electronics, because it doesn't use the same HFM engine management system that the earlier sedans/wagons, and the G320, do.

I also have begun researching the transplant of a C36 AMG motor into my own G320, and I already have a line on a used 3.6L "early" engine that the seller will be removing from his 1995 E320 wagon mid-year. I plan to put it on an engine stand in my shop and do the external build-up from there.

Right now, via the EPC, I'm doing a detailed, system-by-system comparison of the M104.992 and the M104.996 and creating a spreadsheet to determine all of the parts I need to procure to do the switchover. I plan to obtain a G36 AMG HFM computer over the summer on my annual trip to Germany.

The swap will probably happen next winter, if things go according to plan. Definitely interested to hear your findings, and perhaps we should compare notes going forward. Sounds like you are farther along than I am, though.



Edited by gerryvz 2/28/2015 9:24 AM
#226982 - in reply to #225729
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Author
Posted 3/3/2015 9:24 AM
atg
Veteran


Date registered: Nov 2014
Location: Los Angeles
Vehicle(s): 2005 G55, 1985 300tdt
Posts: 129
100
Re: First Engine - 240,000 Miles

Buy a rebuilt head from metric, put it on, and drive.
#227032 - in reply to #226982
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Author
Posted 4/29/2015 1:00 AM
Braingears
Expert




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: St Petersburg, FL
Vehicle(s): G320 & ML320
Posts: 1450
1000
RE: First Engine - 240,000 Miles

I'm pulling the trigger on swapping this engine, although have not been able to find an AMG engine with less than 160,000 miles on it (of finding an entire car as a donor).

As an FYI, I am planning on re-using my transmission. It's a factory re-built with only 25,000 miles on it.  

#227858 - in reply to #225729
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Author
Posted 4/29/2015 7:19 AM
Inkblotz
Expert




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Georgia
Vehicle(s): 90 300GD "Thundering Turtle II", w/ 603A turbo
Posts: 3186
2000
Re: First Engine - 240,000 Miles

http://miami.craigslist.org/mdc/cto/4937614412.html
#227861 - in reply to #225729
Top of the page Bottom of the page
« View previous thread :: View next thread »
Page 1 of 1 1
Forum Jump :
All times are EST.  The time is now 9:14:03 AM.

Execution: 0.421 seconds, 102 cached, 13 executed.