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rhd280
Regular
Date registered: Dec 2014
Location: New Zealand
Vehicle(s): 1982 280GE LWB RHD
Posts: 63
| Opinion on the rear brakes?
This is my fix the G-wagon month and having been away for much of a year, when I came home the family said the 1982 280GE brakes were awful. I bought some brake shoe liners in the states, but now am not sure it would make much difference.
Pulling the rear drum, I found this. Looks like a lot left on them. From the photos, any comments?
 (brakes_0046.jpg)
 (brakedrum_0047.jpg)
 (BrakeShoeThickness_0049.jpg)
 (BrakeShoeTop_0050.jpg)
 (BrakeShowAdjuster0051.jpg)
Attachments
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 brakes_0046.jpg (203KB - 0 downloads)
brakedrum_0047.jpg (180KB - 0 downloads)
BrakeShoeThickness_0049.jpg (99KB - 0 downloads)
BrakeShoeTop_0050.jpg (92KB - 0 downloads)
BrakeShowAdjuster0051.jpg (69KB - 0 downloads)
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jmr89
Date registered: Nov 2012
Location: France
Vehicle(s): Class G W463 320Cab V6 >>Ancien 230 GE Cab 1990
| Re: Opinion on the rear brakes?
It should be clean and on the drum and brake lining fabric froter Emerie or rectify the drums if too bright |
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Boy G
Expert
Date registered: Feb 2007
Location: Bushveld, South Africa
Vehicle(s): Diesel G's: 617A and 602
Posts: 1683
| Re: Opinion on the rear brakes?
It looks all ok from your picture. Try adjusting the pawled wheel adjustment at the bottom as folows.
Release handbrake
Measure the drum internal size with a vernier and check that it is still serviceable.
Subtract 0.5mm from this dia. and adjust the shoes outside measure to this size.
Test fit the drum releasing another 0.5mm if fouling occurs.
When brakes ok, adjust handbrake cables under handbrake lever for two or three clicks to lock.
If brakes not ok, check the load sensing valve rod from the diff pumpkin going upwards (whole process on its own)
Check also vacuum booster. |
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WEBIII
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: Oct 2010
Location: Inlet Beach, FL
Vehicle(s): 461.318, 463.241
Posts: 315
| Re: Opinion on the rear brakes?
Can you describe the symptoms of "awful"? When is the last time you flushed the brake lines with new fluid? What condition are the front brakes in? How does the pedal feel? |
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460332
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Europe
Vehicle(s):
| Re: Opinion on the rear brakes?
Yes, the front brakes affects the brake pedal - what's the status there?
Do you followed vehicle manufacturers service intervals on systems or parts?
Wear of parts are set with tolerances, i.e. you have to measure that the brake shoes, drums, front disks, pads are within tolerances BEFORE you service anything! The rust is only on the surface, no leakage, that's good! Check number for max wear stamped inside the drum, on the flat side. Brake shoes comes with three different thicknesses dependent on the drum wear...
You have to lubricate/service the automatic adjuster - don't mix the left/right shims (gap 0,)! Use high temp PTFE to lubricate when assembling. You need the full procedure to adjust the shoes and the hand brake.
DIY
http://www.pointedthree.com/disc/forums/showthread.php?tid=12455
If you use search you will find out more how the brakes work:
http://www.pointedthree.com/disc/forums/showthread.php?tid=18148
http://www.pointedthree.com/disc/forums/showthread.php?tid=14096
http://www.pointedthree.com/disc/forums/showthread.php?tid=18313
http://www.pointedthree.com/disc/forums/showthread.php?tid=21234
If you use an World Wide Web search engine (like www.google.com) you will find even more information:
http://www.hehlhans.de/tipp31.htm
http://www.hehlhans.de/tipp13b.htm
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4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| Re: Opinion on the rear brakes?
what? the 460 has brakes? never felt like it
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460332
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Europe
Vehicle(s):
| Re: Opinion on the rear brakes?
4x4abc - 3/21/2015 7:27 PM
what? the 460 has brakes? never felt like it
They're very good actually, to be designed before 1979, if you service them, and use the original wheels/tires, 205... - many use too large wheels. |
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4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| Re: Opinion on the rear brakes?
I have been saying that for a long time - not only the gears need to me matched for larger tires, the brakes need a similar upgrade. |
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rhd280
Regular
Date registered: Dec 2014
Location: New Zealand
Vehicle(s): 1982 280GE LWB RHD
Posts: 63
| Re: Opinion on the rear brakes?
WEBIII - 3/22/2015 2:45 AM
Can you describe the symptoms of "awful"? When is the last time you flushed the brake lines with new fluid? What condition are the front brakes in? How does the pedal feel?
I wish I could describe what my daughter meant when she said the brakes were "awful". As a non-technical person, she said it was dangerous and very hard to stop; but then again, her normal car in town is a Honda Accord. I find stomping on the brakes has always been sort of normal, with Fritz the '82 LWB 280GE.
Unfortunately when I came home from overseas, Fritz had peed petrol/gasoline all over the garage floor (and was still dripping), so I could not test drive him (the new bottom tank hose should arrive by courier tomorrow). However, the brakes have never been impressive, and lately (meaning last time I drove him in 2014) I would note that backing out of the garage, it felt like a lot of resistance, as if the brakes were dragging. He also would not drift smoothly when slowly moving on level ground and left in neutral, which again suggests dragging brakes, although it could just be that the beast has all sorts of friction. He rarely is driven more than 20km (12 miles) at a time, with weeks or even months in between. Even when I take the car ferry to Auckland, I do the motorway/freeway at 80 kph / 50 mph max, so he is slow and infrequently taken out for exercise.
Replacing the brake fluid is a good first step and I can get fluid on the island. I'll do that first.
I was wondering if perhaps the rear brake cylinders are freezing up or getting sticky from lack of use. No leaks showing.
How would I determine that without messing anything up? |
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Warren T
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: May 2006
Location: Montreal
Vehicle(s): 230GE,300GD,300D
Posts: 519
| Re: Opinion on the rear brakes?
If you are using 16in. or 18in. wheels on a 460, you can easily upgrade front brakes to 463 ones.
The vented discs on a 463 are a larger diameter so have more leverage (about 1 half in.)
The caliper is therefore taller between mounting holes and piston centerline.
Piston diameter and everything else is the same.
I recomend this modification when doing front brakes on a 460 if you can find the calipers
for a decent price.
Aftermarket 463 discs are cheaper than 460 discs beacause thay were imported to North America on G500's. Calipers are also more readily available so you will save in the long run
and benefit from stronger brakes.
The pads are interchangeable, but the G500 specific pad is (stikier) beacause of the greater
capacity of the vented to dissipate heat.
Warren
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fernweh
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Calabasas, CA - Centenario, BCS - Luebeck, Germany
Vehicle(s): Few Mercedes-Benz, a Toyota Amphibious and a Vespa
| Re: Opinion on the rear brakes?
4x4abc - 3/22/2015 8:28 AM
I have been saying that for a long time - not only the gears need to me matched for larger tires, the brakes need a similar upgrade.
Yeah, I found that out on my 300GE Adventurewagen......especially when driving in reverse.....needed an anchor! |
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AlanMcR
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, CA, Los Altos
Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL
Posts: 3500
| Re: Opinion on the rear brakes?
fernweh - 3/23/2015 7:31 AM 4x4abc - 3/22/2015 8:28 AM I have been saying that for a long time - not only the gears need to me matched for larger tires, the brakes need a similar upgrade. Yeah, I found that out on my 300GE Adventurewagen......especially when driving in reverse.....needed an anchor! If forward and reverse have different braking effect, I'd strongly suspect the drum brake adjuster is stuck. The two threads operate independently.
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4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| Re: Opinion on the rear brakes?
Warren T - 3/23/2015 7:19 AM
If you are using 16in. or 18in. wheels on a 460, you can easily upgrade front brakes to 463 ones.
The vented discs on a 463 are a larger diameter so have more leverage (about 1 half in.)
The caliper is therefore taller between mounting holes and piston centerline.
Piston diameter and everything else is the same.
I recomend this modification when doing front brakes on a 460 if you can find the calipers
for a decent price.
Aftermarket 463 discs are cheaper than 460 discs beacause thay were imported to North America on G500's. Calipers are also more readily available so you will save in the long run
and benefit from stronger brakes.
The pads are interchangeable, but the G500 specific pad is (stikier) beacause of the greater
capacity of the vented to dissipate heat.
Warren
Warren,
one of the best tips ever on this forum! |
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rhd280
Regular
Date registered: Dec 2014
Location: New Zealand
Vehicle(s): 1982 280GE LWB RHD
Posts: 63
| RE: Opinion on the rear brakes?
I had my helper gently press on the brake pedal while I watched the exposed rear brake shoes (as in the photo in the original posting). The right hand shoe moved out and back in, the left one did not.
Is this normal, or is the brake cylinder not working correctly? My sense is the latter, but before I do something stupid, I wanted to check with those more conversant with G-brakes.
If not correct, is this something I can disassemble without doing damage, and then clean out with brake cleaner, or should I have parts on hand (not that easy to get in New Zealand) in case something breaks or gets damaged?
I have not yet begun to bleed the brakes and replace the brake fluid.
Sorry to ask such basic questions, but with old stuff just opening it up can sometimes result in a worse disaster especially when one is far away from the parts supply chain. |
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AlanMcR
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, CA, Los Altos
Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL
Posts: 3500
| RE: Opinion on the rear brakes?
That kind of fits what I was saying above, about one or the other shoe not working. I had assumed that it was the adjuster that failed to take up the gap. A stuck piston certainly would explain it too. Chances are that if you try to free up the piston the seals will leak. So I'd get new seals at a minimum before trying to open it up. Do both sides of the vehicle, of course. If the cylinder is damaged, there may be "local" services for classic cars that can insert a stainless steel sleeve for cheaper than the new part.
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olasdeplata
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: Sep 2006
Location: At the Beach in Hatteras
Vehicle(s): 280GE convertible 84, 300E 89
Posts: 396
| Re: Opinion on the rear brakes?
Can someone please look the part number of the front calipers of the G500? I think several brake components were shared with the W210, and these are very cheap at junk yards... |
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rhd280
Regular
Date registered: Dec 2014
Location: New Zealand
Vehicle(s): 1982 280GE LWB RHD
Posts: 63
| RE: Opinion on the rear brakes?
AlanMcR - 3/25/2015 3:51 PM That kind of fits what I was saying above, about one or the other shoe not working. I had assumed that it was the adjuster that failed to take up the gap. A stuck piston certainly would explain it too. Chances are that if you try to free up the piston the seals will leak. So I'd get new seals at a minimum before trying to open it up. Do both sides of the vehicle, of course. If the cylinder is damaged, there may be "local" services for classic cars that can insert a stainless steel sleeve for cheaper than the new part.
These are the times when I wish I was in the states. Here I was quoted US-$124 to sleeve, $272 to replace and I have to wait 2 weeks for them to come from Singapore.
Does anyone know a good source for such parts in Europe, or am I better off ordering from the states? If so, who should I use?
Does anyone know the brake kit part numbers for a 1982 W460 280GE LWB RHD? (All the numbers for the parts recommended to be replaced, not just the cylinder)
Also, I see that Fourbyfourclub (link = 1) lists FEBI wheel cylinder for $44 each, but at Aftermarket/OEM Parts Vendor Quality List (link = 2) FEBI is classified as "sometimes OK but inconsistent". Any thoughts on this brand in reference to this part?
1) http://fourbyfourclub.com/W460Brakes/W460BrakeCylinder.htm
2) http://www.pointedthree.com/disc/forums/showthread.php?tid=21634&po... |
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Boy G
Expert
Date registered: Feb 2007
Location: Bushveld, South Africa
Vehicle(s): Diesel G's: 617A and 602
Posts: 1683
| Re: Opinion on the rear brakes?
Check out VW beetle cylinders.
When you press the brake pedal with no drum the shoe with the least friction will move until the piston pops out. Ie you cant do a definitive test like that imo. |
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460332
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Europe
Vehicle(s):
| RE: Opinion on the rear brakes?
rhd280 - 3/24/2015 8:56 PM
I had my helper gently press on the brake pedal while I watched the exposed rear brake shoes (as in the photo in the original posting). The right hand shoe moved out and back in, the left one did not.
Is this normal, or is the brake cylinder not working correctly? My sense is the latter, but before I do something stupid, I wanted to check with those more conversant with G-brakes.
If not correct, is this something I can disassemble without doing damage, and then clean out with brake cleaner, or should I have parts on hand (not that easy to get in New Zealand) in case something breaks or gets damaged?
I have not yet begun to bleed the brakes and replace the brake fluid.
Sorry to ask such basic questions, but with old stuff just opening it up can sometimes result in a worse disaster especially when one is far away from the parts supply chain.
The shoe that moves has the piston/cylinder with less resistance - i.e the other doesn't have to be stucked, the fluid goes where there is less resistence!
I f you read the links that was posted to you above would have seen how this was disassembled...
Any Mercedes dealer can order any part, even in New Zealand! Or..: (A 011 420 88 18).
http://www.ebay.de/sch/i.html?_odkw=A0114208818&_from=R40&_osacat=0...
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rhd280
Regular
Date registered: Dec 2014
Location: New Zealand
Vehicle(s): 1982 280GE LWB RHD
Posts: 63
| RE: Opinion on the rear brakes?
[QUOTE:] If you read the links that was posted to you above would have seen how this was disassembled...[\QUOTE]
Yes, read the links, but I was asking what parts I should have on hand in case something breaks. When one is as far from the supply chain as I am knowing the weak parts before I begin means I can be more prepared.
BTW, looking through the records, when I VIN'd the vehicle in 1998 to make it compliant in NZ, it had all the brake parts replaced, which explains why the shoes look good (it's been driven 6,000 miles in 17 years). I reckon it is the garage sitting in a damp climate rather than driving wear & tear that is causing the problems. I am beginning to wonder if it would make more sense to have the parts I have resleeved in stainless. Otherwise in 2032 I can expect the same problem! Thoughts anyone?
[QUOTE:] Any Mercedes dealer can order any part, even in New Zealand! Or..: (A 011 420 88 18).[\QUOTE]
Thanks for the part number. I rang MB-NZ. NZ$556 (US$417 / €417 / £284) for the pair, and ex-DE, two weeks minimum. Wow!
Your E-Bay.DE link £40 shipped looks a lot more reasonable; thanks for that. Any thoughts on the quality of FEBI OEM brand?
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