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hipine
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
| Another Odyssey battery story
I let the 280GE (with 617A transplant) sit for 6 weeks without touching it. This is too long. I know from experience that if I let it sit more than 2 weeks, the main battery (only 44Ah) will be too weak to start it due to parasitic drains and I'll have to push the combiner button to let the house battery assist. But anyway, I was lazy and stupid and let it sit while outside temps dropped to -10F.
Sunday I thought I'd better check into it. The starting battery actually showed ZERO volts to the VOM. I've never seen a battery that dead before. I thought I probably froze and broke it as well, but I couldn't see any cracks in the case so decided to try and recover it.
I got out the fancy Xantrex battery charger made to deal with the AGM batteries. It would give the old college try, but eventually show "E01" "charging error" on the LED display. Bummer.
So I got out the 25 year old Battery Tender trickle charger, hooked it up and let it sit.
Approximately 24 hrs later I gave it a try. Open the door and the interior light comes on bright! That's something. Turn the key and when the glow plugs kick in, the interior light dims...Hmmm....When the glow light goes out I turn the key and get...RRRR (sound of about 1/2 revolution cranking).....nothing.
Back on the trickle charger for another 24 hours. Come home after work today and go through the routine again. This time it cranks great and starts! Totally amazing. Time will tell if it holds a charge or has seen any other adverse effects from my abuse, but I was amazed that it could come back from a 0 volt deep freeze like that at all.
-Dave G. |
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DesertStar
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA
Vehicle(s): 85-280GE/95-G320/08-G500
Posts: 2156
| Re: Another Odyssey battery story
Great story Dave. Lazy at -10F....what's up with that ?
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emlmcb
Veteran
Date registered: Dec 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Vehicle(s): 1986 LWB 300GD / 1998 E320 / 1996 LWB G300TD
Posts: 119
| RE: Another Odyssey battery story
Dave:
No ofense, but a 44 ah battery for a diésel in Colorado?
I have a 125 ah one in my G300DT and I live in a place where it snowed only once in the 20th century!!!!!
Maybe mine is a little too much, but just suppose you are in the middle of nowhere and you have any problema with you fuel system or anythink that involves having to crank your engine up for some time. With 44 ah you will rum out of battery power pretty soon.
That battery was ok for the original gas engine, but not for a diésel that needs to be pre heated besides drawing more current just for the starter motor.
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hipine
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
| RE: Another Odyssey battery story
emlmcb - 1/13/2016 8:19 AM
Dave:
No ofense, but a 44 ah battery for a diésel in Colorado?
I have a 125 ah one in my G300DT and I live in a place where it snowed only once in the 20th century!!!!!
Maybe mine is a little too much, but just suppose you are in the middle of nowhere and you have any problema with you fuel system or anythink that involves having to crank your engine up for some time. With 44 ah you will rum out of battery power pretty soon.
That battery was ok for the original gas engine, but not for a diésel that needs to be pre heated besides drawing more current just for the starter motor.
Ah has precious little to do with predictable starting. There's a different spec called reserve CCA that's closer to your point, but still not very important. Cranking isn't the answer to fuel problems. There's a hand pump under the hood for that. 10 years and 180,000 miles (on the diesel with 44Ah battery, 460,000 on the truck all together) of every temperature under the sun and stars from 120F in Death Valley to -40F in central CO. It always starts. When it gets very cold there's a Webasto under the hood. Of course everything involves proper preparation including doping the fuel correctly to prevent gelling, and other things like the fact that there are two identical, isolated batteries so that the second can be brought into play with a push of a button should the need arise (it hasn't). I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who know more about what diesel engines need than I do. But I do know mine (I built it after all), and I do know it always starts. 
Hell, it even started when the main battery was frozen solid and reading 0 volts. It pre-glowed and started on the house battery (another 44Ah Odyssey). But I didn't want to stress the charging system or the battery by running it a bunch with that frozen battery in the system so I just drove it around the block, and then put it on the trickle charger as stated above.
Large Ah batteries have their uses - like keeping the beer in the Engel fridge cold while the truck sits in camp. But then, this thing is a motor vehicle after all and it should be driven!
All the best,
-Dave G. |
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hipine
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
| Re: Another Odyssey battery story
DesertStar - 1/13/2016 1:02 AM
Great story Dave. Lazy at -10F....what's up with that ?
Maybe not lazy as much as playing with different toys. But in an un-heated garage, that has it's limits too. Great to hear from you Mike. I hope all is well and you're having fun.
All the best,
-Dave G. |
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Boy G
Expert
Date registered: Feb 2007
Location: Bushveld, South Africa
Vehicle(s): Diesel G's: 617A and 602
Posts: 1683
| Re: Another Odyssey battery story
Spot on Dave! Great story. I like your logic. A 22 kills a thing as good as a shotgun.
Btw my wife drives an old 201 with a huge mileage on it. Last year we had to replace the battery in it and I said to the supplier that I was very annoyed with the "poor" service that we had out of the previous one. The supplier started looking guilty till I told him that it was the OEM Varta from 1996.... |
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hipine
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
| Re: Another Odyssey battery story
Boy G - 1/15/2016 11:57 PM
Spot on Dave! Great story. I like your logic. A 22 kills a thing as good as a shotgun.
Btw my wife drives an old 201 with a huge mileage on it. Last year we had to replace the battery in it and I said to the supplier that I was very annoyed with the "poor" service that we had out of the previous one. The supplier started looking guilty till I told him that it was the OEM Varta from 1996....
Agreed Andrew, the world's expectations have unfortunately become quite low in lots of things. 20 years is pretty darned good out of a battery! Part of that comes from being sized correctly so that it gets drained and re-charged appropriately in use. Some of those old engineers knew what they were doing. Hope you're doing well of late and enjoying your summer time.
All the best,
-Dave G. |
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emlmcb
Veteran
Date registered: Dec 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Vehicle(s): 1986 LWB 300GD / 1998 E320 / 1996 LWB G300TD
Posts: 119
| RE: Another Odyssey battery story
Dave:
I don´t want to start an argument with you, but there are certain points in your answer that I think are quite wrong.
1) You say that ah has no relationship with starting. Ah is a fast and easy (the right one is measured in Coulomb) measure of available electric charge. In simple words it means how much electricity you have stored in your battery.
For your own words, your battery was disharged after 2 weeks due to parasitic drains.
It is just a matter of logic. If you have more stored charge it will take longer for the drains to empty it.
2) CCA does also have a relationship with your starting. It means what is the current that you can draw from your battery without damaging it.
As an engine is colder, the starter motor needs more power to move it and the most it can get from the battery is determined by the CCA.
If you compare electricity with wáter, ah shows how big is your tank and CCA is how large is the pipe that flows the wáter from it.
Then in your sencond entry you said that your G always starts even with the small 44ah battery, but you started the whole subject telling that it did not start after being stopped for 2 weeks.
In the end, you have two 44 ah batteries which is about the same in terms of total charge that an 88 ah one. Having two separate batteries has some advantages and some drawbacks from having only a big one, but this is not the issue to discus here.
Last, what you say about the diésel pump and other stuff related to the fuel system has nothing to do with battery charge.
Of course if your fuel system is perfect and the diésel is not frozen and the starter motor is in great condition, the engine will start instantly without the need of a big battery.
But what if any of these is not true. Sometimes diésel gets frozen even with antifreeze, sometimes the brushes of your starter motor are either worn out or just humid due to some stream fording the previous day or many or just a terminal that got loose and generates high contact resistense.
If for any reason you have to crank your engine longer that usual, a larger battery doesn´t hurt.
Ed |
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Boy G
Expert
Date registered: Feb 2007
Location: Bushveld, South Africa
Vehicle(s): Diesel G's: 617A and 602
Posts: 1683
| Re: Another Odyssey battery story
I think you are quite right but Dave prefers hunting with one arrow.
Another Dave I know about, went hunting giants, and it only took one stone.
I dont quite understand it myself but I think it is a Dave thing.
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AlanMcR
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, CA, Los Altos
Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL
Posts: 3500
| Re: Another Odyssey battery story
To be fair, he is hunting with two arrows. Given the way that batteries fail, one big arrow isn't necessarily much (or any) better than two smaller ones. An internal failure takes out the whole battery regardless of size. Having a manual lift pump is a huge leg up on the starting problem. It takes approximately one good factory battery to engine-bleed the standard OM606 fuel system. If you are lucky it will start right at the end of that period.
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hipine
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
| RE: Another Odyssey battery story
Good stuff Ed! A close reader will find no disagreement in my posts with any of your points there. They're all certainly valid and I'm sure will keep you happy in many more miles and years of G motoring. I wish you the best in every one!
I would love to be able to drive in Argentina some time. I've only seen pictures and read articles, but it seems like an incredibly beautiful place full of friendly people. If you make it to the USA, give a shout and we'll have some fun!
All the best,
-Dave G. |
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hipine
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
| Re: Another Odyssey battery story
AlanMcR - 1/18/2016 3:50 PM
To be fair, he is hunting with two arrows. ...
You're both right. My elk rifle is a Ruger No.1! But in that case it's sort of three "arrows", because two extra cartridges are held between the 2/3 and 3/4 fingers of the off hand while firing the one in the chamber. A lot like the G battery set up if you think about it!
All the best my friends,
-Dave G. |
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emlmcb
Veteran
Date registered: Dec 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Vehicle(s): 1986 LWB 300GD / 1998 E320 / 1996 LWB G300TD
Posts: 119
| RE: Another Odyssey battery story
Dave:
Even when this has no relationship with the battery issue, I just want to tell you that you don´t have to drive TO Argentina, but you can drive IN Argentina.
As you probably know, the history of the G is much linked to this Country, since the Argentine armed forces made an initial purchase of 1000 units in the late 70´s.
Some of them are still in service and others have been decomisioned and were converted to civilian units. In most cases they have been fitted with OM617 (na or turbo) engines.
Only a handfull of civilian G´s reached Argentina, due to the fact of very high import duties which would take the price to well over a quarter million dollars at present.
Most of the civilian versions were imported by foreign embassies.
I am lucky enough to have one of the more moder ones, a 1998 G300DT, that started running in 2001.
Anyway, many of us gather in an informal G club, where we exchange parts, ideas and organize adventures.
If you ever feel like jumping on a plane and joining us, we will be happy to include you in our group.
Actually in February, another fórum member is visiting us.
Ed |
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Boy G
Expert
Date registered: Feb 2007
Location: Bushveld, South Africa
Vehicle(s): Diesel G's: 617A and 602
Posts: 1683
| Re: Another Odyssey battery story
You do know Ed that there is I think, a common belief that the factory never put a turbo diesel into a 460, in particular a 617A, and lo and behold one appeared down here, with a 5 speed gearbox and a PTO winch and we have verified that it indeed did come out of Graz like that. You say that there are more of them in your neck of the woods? Please tell us more.
Apologies re your thread Dave but perhaps Ed can tell us how many Ah batteries were in these turbo 617's.
Edit. just read your post again and perhaps they were converted after being decommissioned?
Edited by Boy G 1/20/2016 1:49 PM
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hipine
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
| Re: Another Odyssey battery story
Boy G - 1/20/2016 11:48 AM
... Please tell us more.
Apologies re your thread Dave but perhaps Ed can tell us how many Ah batteries were in these turbo 617's.
Edit. just read your post again and perhaps they were converted after being decommissioned?
No apologies necessary, but it sounds like too interesting a subject to be burried here! Something separate with an applicable title like "Factory built Gs with 617A" would probably help more interested people spot it, chime in, and find it later.
And even if those Argentine Gs are a conversion of some kind, it sounds like an interesting story to know and tell and shouldn't be buried in something so droll as a casual glad-handing of a battery company.
Very cool!
All the best,
-Dave G.
Edited by hipine 1/22/2016 8:52 AM
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emlmcb
Veteran
Date registered: Dec 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Vehicle(s): 1986 LWB 300GD / 1998 E320 / 1996 LWB G300TD
Posts: 119
| RE: Another Odyssey battery story
I do agree that the original 460 with a OM617a engine deserves a topic for itself, so I will let Andrew, who introduced the subject, start it.
Regarding the batteries we use, there is a wide spectrum.
Most of the Original Army G´s (230G) had a 24 volt electric circuit to make their communications equipment compatible with tanks and trucks.
The 617 engines (na or turbo) comming from passenger cars, had 12 volt starters, generators and preheater instalation.
One alternative was to convert the whole vehicle to 12 volts (all lamps, windshield wiper et all) or the other was to use 2 12 volt batteries in series charged by the 24 volt generator taken from the original engine, so you feed the rest of the car from the 2 batteries and the engine from one or the other.
For this setup we normally used the largest we can fit into the original battery holder. Something like 2 44ah ones.
G´s comming from other forces (not Army) were mostly 240GD with 12 volt layouts so the conversión was easier. Sincé all of them have manual transmissions and can easily be push started, the batteries are in the 44 to 80 ah range, depending on the owner.
Then, we had the first civilian G´s (mid 80´s) mostly either 300GD or 280G.
Very few retain the original 280 engine (gas is not cheap here and the 280 really enjoys burning it). As per the 300 some remain original, others incorporated a turbo kit and others got a 617a from a car.
The battery of choice depends on the owner´s Budget but also on the transmission. Most of them are 4 speed manulas and a few 4 speed automatics.
This early auto trans could be push started but needed enough ground to develop some speed, so generally the autos were equiped with larger batteries than the manuals.
I have been told that there are (or were) a few of these originally equipped with a 5 speed manual, but I never saw one.
The few 5 speed ones that I saw (including my first 300GD) have a 5 speed Getrag taken from a car.
Specially if you have a turbo engine, this is great on the road, but the first gear is too long and you loose a lot of extreme climbing torque. Besides that they are terribly noisy when iddling.
Finally the very few 463´s are all automatic.
Mine is a G300TD, I know there is an older 350 in another province and I sometimes come across a G320.
In my case, since I travel a lot and somethimes alone and considering that:
a) There is plenty of room for a large battery in the rear right fenderwell where the original holder is.
b) One of my companies is a marine supplier and we have a battery maker that produces them with our own Brand.
I had custom built for me the largest and best battery that could be accomodated. It ended up being some 125 ah.
By "best" I mean that many cheaper batteries are made with low quality lead, usually recovered from plumbing. Mine was made with "new" one.
A Century or gel battery could have been considered as well, but they are imported and imports are not always available here, so, whenever posible I try to stay with things that I can readily replace.
This, I believe closes the battery string.
Hope the turbo 460 issue which is more promising is started.
I would include in it 5 speed manual 460´s. They are like witches: I don´t believe in them, never seen one, but I know there are some.
Thank you
Ed |
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Warren T
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: May 2006
Location: Montreal
Vehicle(s): 230GE,300GD,300D
Posts: 519
| Re: Another Odyssey battery story
Ive never seen or heard of a factory 460 with a 617 turbo but I just converted a 1984 diesel that had a 5 speed to
a turbo engine and automatic transmission. The non turbo 617 strugles with the overdrive, but with the turbo engine
and 5 speed overdrive you have the best combo for any on road driving.
I can't think of any reason why they never offered that option.
As a side note...from my experiance, while making more power, the turbo motors last longer (hold compression) than
the non turboes. Seems the piston cooling makes a difference.
Warren |
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