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Boy G
Expert
Date registered: Feb 2007
Location: Bushveld, South Africa
Vehicle(s): Diesel G's: 617A and 602
Posts: 1683
| Ok here goes: factory fitted 617 A
We were pollitely arguing about batteries over yonder when this topic came up in it. Herewith the fresh thread.
A year or so back a very interresting G was bought in South Africa by one of the bro's that hangs out on the local SA G forum (MB4x4.co.za).
It appears the factory built it with a 617a - ie turbo motor, a 5 speed box, and a PTO winch and all in RHD. It has some interesting cooling gills cut into the bonnet (should that read hood?) tropical roof and so on.
I will link this post onto our forum and see if Leonard will come and talk to us here. |
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AlanMcR
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, CA, Los Altos
Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL
Posts: 3500
| RE: Ok here goes: factory fitted 617 A
A VIN would make this discussion much more interesting.
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Warren T
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: May 2006
Location: Montreal
Vehicle(s): 230GE,300GD,300D
Posts: 519
| Re: Ok here goes: factory fitted 617 A
Wouldn't it show up in the parts catalog...
Warren |
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DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
Posts: 9963
| Re: Ok here goes: factory fitted 617 A
Warren T - 1/22/2016 8:03 PM
Wouldn't it show up in the parts catalog...
Warren
That's why a VIN would add to the discussion. It would enable us to see the Vehicle Data Card in the EPC, and know exactly how it left the factory. |
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hipine
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
| RE: Ok here goes: factory fitted 617 A
I for one am not interested in nit-picking provenance. I want pictures!  If a VIN combined with the EPC to show how MB would have intended to fit the 617A to the G, that'd be fun to see too. But I'm interested in the truck first, regardless. I'm afraid that if the first thing the guy sees here is a bunch of posts that sound like, "Prove it!" he won't bother. I probably wouldn't.
I'm also interested in Ed's Argentinian truck and how those were done.
VIN is a part of the story, but a minor part to me.
-Dave G. |
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bram_r
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2007
Location: the Netherlands
Vehicle(s): 1984 MB 280GE, 1982 MB 300GD, 1986 Subaru XT 4WD
Posts: 1659
| Re: Ok here goes: factory fitted 617 A
Anxious to see a factory fitted om617a and what parts and details MB incorporated in doing so.
As it has never been a standard option, must be some kind of build to spec model? I know that car companies make all kind of rare one-offs for rich sultans and that kind of people, but never heard of a sultan wanting a om617a powered G
Looking forward to see more info/pics/VIN etc!
gr. bram |
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petermerle
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Cape Town ( deep south )
Vehicle(s): W460 *1, W123 *2, W124
Posts: 1315
| Re: Ok here goes: factory fitted 617 A
The actual VIn is WDB46033327039857. ( Production date 28/3/1985 ) The Datacard on EPC shows engine no as 617 931 20 097251 - now whats interesting is that actual engine no is 617 952 12 097251 - clearly there is a typo error on datacard . The 617.931 is the correct engine for a 460.333 chassis but 617.952 is not. Not the serial no ( last 6 digits are the same )
What probably happened is that they could not load a engine type 617.952 onto the EPC system as there was theoretically no such vehicle was in production
Another G very close in production sequence to the Turbo i s VIN 46033327039568 which has engine no 617 931 20 012368 ( Production date 13/2/1985 ) - this further supports my theory.
A a normal 617.931 engine which started production in 1979 reached a serial number of 012368 by 13/2/1985 so there is no chance that a 617.931 engine of serial number 097251 was reached by 28/3/1985. I doubt the 617.931 engines every reached a serial no of 030000.
It certainly is an interesting vehicle having many options including PTO winch , tropical roof and modified bonnect to keep engine bay cool
Other interesting observations
1. Has non standard inner front fenders SA59091/06
2. Reinforced bonnet SA 59076/06
One needs to get hold of Graz what the story is here
Most unusual as its a manual transmission ( the 617.952 was never fitted to a manual gearbox in any production vehicle )
Peter
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Boy G
Expert
Date registered: Feb 2007
Location: Bushveld, South Africa
Vehicle(s): Diesel G's: 617A and 602
Posts: 1683
| Re: Ok here goes: factory fitted 617 A
Peter, i think that what a lot of 617a convertees would like to know is what Graz did with the sump and or engine mount arms as that engine in its standard form crashes the front diff.
I am not sure if Leonard has fitted the "new" 711.113 gearbox yet, as the Getrag that was in there did what most of them do and I think he told me he chucked it out. Do you know?
And I would like to see how they keep the turbo's heat off the brake master and booster.
Edited by Boy G 1/23/2016 1:35 PM
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Boy G
Expert
Date registered: Feb 2007
Location: Bushveld, South Africa
Vehicle(s): Diesel G's: 617A and 602
Posts: 1683
| Re: Ok here goes: factory fitted 617 A
Leonard responded thus on the other side:
QUOTE Will do but may take a few days as I am internetless. There is one anomaly I have yet to get an explanation for and would welcome any ideas or historians input. Datacard shows different engine- not turbo. As far as I know the first owner requested all extras and mods and took delivery of vehicle in Canada new with current setup. As these G were not available with this engine it may have been the factory took a non turbo and went about modifications as requested. While I like this theory I welcome any ideas that may contradict.
To me it looks too good a job not to be factory. Bigger clutch and flywheel (not GD), bigger air filter+ housing, extra diesel filter. Everything seems well thought out, even the gills. At slow speed a lot of heat escapes there.
I really should get around to asking original owner who I believe went to UK after selling G (after carting G with to 2 more continents after Canada) Also thought to ask Graz if they have someexplanation or record other than datacard showing 617931 or 913 I think.
VIN 46033327039857 UNQUOTE
Which makes me wonder a bit. Maybe it is a .931 just fitted with the outside bits like manifolds etc. as you hint.
A photo of the crank pulley end and the sump might settle this.
Sent from my ST27i using Tapatalk
Edited by Boy G 1/23/2016 1:52 PM
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Warren T
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: May 2006
Location: Montreal
Vehicle(s): 230GE,300GD,300D
Posts: 519
| Re: Ok here goes: factory fitted 617 A
A conversion from 617 to 617a can look very factory. It can be done using all factory parts from throttle linkage
to rad. hoses fan and shroud ETC with the larger 280GE air filter unit. The only give away would be fabricated
engine brackets.
I,ve had people think I was lying when I open the hood and tell them the truck originally had a 6cyl gas engine.
Warren |
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Inkblotz
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Georgia
Vehicle(s): 90 300GD "Thundering Turtle II", w/ 603A turbo
Posts: 3186
| Re: Ok here goes: factory fitted 617 A
This G had a post running about it on MB4x4.co.za in 2013. It was evidently up for sale on Gumtree and the same 617A or 617N/A question was raised. From the photos it appears to be a cobbled together 617A.
Here is the link: http://www.mb4x4.co.za/forum/showthread.php/2140-W460-5-door-300GD-(-turbo-)-for-sale |
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petermerle
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Cape Town ( deep south )
Vehicle(s): W460 *1, W123 *2, W124
Posts: 1315
| Re: Ok here goes: factory fitted 617 A
SAme car we are talking about. Its very simple the engine number as two digits different digits 2 and 3. Serial number matches data card , the datacard serial number 97251 cannot possible be a 931 engine as they the last 931 engines were less than 30000. Has someone got contact details for someone at Graz to look this one up. I seem to remember the service book had the 617952 engine listed - Leonard could you confirm and maybe take a picture
Edited by petermerle 1/24/2016 12:51 AM
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petermerle
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Cape Town ( deep south )
Vehicle(s): W460 *1, W123 *2, W124
Posts: 1315
| RE: Ok here goes: factory fitted 617 A
engine number on block
 (Leonard Engine #.jpg)
Attachments
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 Leonard Engine #.jpg (50KB - 0 downloads)
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petermerle
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Cape Town ( deep south )
Vehicle(s): W460 *1, W123 *2, W124
Posts: 1315
| RE: Ok here goes: factory fitted 617 A
Service book, pity its hand written
 (Sevice book.jpg)
Attachments
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Sevice book.jpg (23KB - 3 downloads)
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Luky
Elite Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Bratislava, Slovakia, EU
Vehicle(s): 300GE LWB auto, E320CDI 4M, VW Polo Classic 1.6
Posts: 1062
| Re: Ok here goes: factory fitted 617 A
Some years ago I have seen a LWB W460 with a factory fitted Om617a which was for sale by Stuttgart factory`s employee flight club. It was an experimental vehicle and was donated to the club after it was not needed by the factory anymore. The car had no registration documents and was used only on the airfield. According to the VIN it was a 230G and there was nothing interesting in the datacard except the code vehicle for internal use.
Will try to find the pics...
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hipine
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
| Re: Ok here goes: factory fitted 617 A
Thanks for that link. The final post there says a lot. "cobbled" is in the eye of the beholder I guess, but there's no reason to doubt the son's word that it was modified by someone related to MB in some official way. There are a lot of things about the engine bay that seem to "go both ways". Extensive use of hose clamps and fixings that are all consistent with what was used by MB in the day speaks to someone at MB doing the work. But there are other things that look like a conversion more so than a factory original (which it's freely admitted it's not - being a Canadian truck with 617A fitted later).
As Warren said, I'd really like to see how the engine mounting was done, what the oil pan looks like, and I'll add one to that - where the oil cooler is located and how it's plumbed. Factory or not, I'm always interested in those bits. Somewhere it was mentioned that the flywheel is not a GD one. I'd also be interested in that part too because the starter position controls the ring gear and there's not much room in that bell housing or rear flange plate for anything else. I'd be interested in what the flywheel and clutch actually are too, if that can be verified. Since the clutch driven plate would be considered a wear item, it's part number should have been furnished somewhere along the way.
Thanks for sharing!
On my conversion I wrapped the down-pipe from the turbo with header wrap and had the exhaust manifold ceramic coated. This was (on my LHD vehicle) done to keep from cooking the starter as much as anything. I've never replaced a starter, and with 180k turbodiesel Colorado miles on the truck, I call it proven. Whenever I've opened the hood with the car freshly driven hard, its never any warmer under there than the M110 was, and frankly usually cooler.
-Dave G. |
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Warren T
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: May 2006
Location: Montreal
Vehicle(s): 230GE,300GD,300D
Posts: 519
| Re: Ok here goes: factory fitted 617 A
Surely not a factory installed turbo engine...
It has a non turbo 617 fast idle control that doesn't work well with a turbo (spools up and RPM runs away)
You can see a bracket on the T-stat housing that supports an AC hose on 123 bodies only (wouldn' be there)
Radiator from 230GE with no room for oil cooler.
as for it's Canadian army roots I doubt they knew what a G wagon was in 1985
The air filter is interesting though
Warren |
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460332
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Europe
Vehicle(s):
| Re: Ok here goes: factory fitted 617 A
One known factory mounted OM617A Geländewagen is at the museum in Stuttgart, I mean to have read that the transmission was automatic.
Edited by 460332 1/24/2016 7:20 PM
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Boy G
Expert
Date registered: Feb 2007
Location: Bushveld, South Africa
Vehicle(s): Diesel G's: 617A and 602
Posts: 1683
| Re: Ok here goes: factory fitted 617 A
Warren, 290 turbo 461's also have no oil cooler, just the full width radiator.
The engine in this G according to Peter's picture is a .952. The sequence number from the data card is identical except the type is .931. And as Peter explains this sequence never went that high with the 931
For me it appears that the cobbler cobbled it before the data card was committed
The question remains: who was the cobbler?
Edited by Boy G 1/25/2016 2:11 PM
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Johnny Christensen
Veteran
Date registered: Sep 2010
Location: Denmark
Vehicle(s): GD290 W461
Posts: 202
| Re: Ok here goes: factory fitted 617 A
Boy G - 1/25/2016 8:01 PM
Warren, 290 turbo 461's also have no oil cooler, just the full width radiator.
Partially true. It has the oil / water heatexchanger underneath the oilfilter unit. Therefore you will only find radiator in front. |
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