Welcome Guest. ( logon | register )   
FAQ Member List Albums Today's Posts Search

PointedThree :  Community forums : General Mercedes-Benz Discussions : 3.5 V6 Questions

Page 1 of 3 123
3.5 V6 Questions
Topic Tools Message Format
Author
Posted 7/4/2006 9:59 PM
iNeon

Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
3.5 V6 Questions

Is this the Chrysler 3.5 from the Intrepid/Concorde/LHS/New Yorker/Vision/300M?

It seems like the horsepower number is strikingly close-- 250 v. 26x, the displacement and such..

It would make sense, because the engine is WELL developed and just about perfected at this point-- Chrysler also has many fewer engine electrical faults and such, which Mercedes has promised to correct.

So... Is it the same? Related? I don't see any reason for a corporation to produce two different 3.5 engines?
#28946
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Author
Posted 7/5/2006 11:49 AM
cmitch
Expert




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Ala-Tenn
Vehicle(s): 2002 ML320, 2005 S430 4Matic, 2010 F150 Super Crew
Posts: 3412
2000
RE: 3.5 V6 Questions

I may be wrong but I don't think MB has a 3.5 liter V-6. The 350 engines are really 3.7 liter V-6's. Someone may know something I don't.

Have you ever looked at a 300M? They reek of S-Class similarities! 

#29021 - in reply to #28946
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Author
Posted 7/5/2006 12:49 PM
iNeon

Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
Re: 3.5 V6 Questions

Oh, Okay--

Silly me... I assumed that since they call them all 350's, that they had a 3.5 litre displacement! I guess I ought to quit thinking of them as the company they were, eh?

Does E370 really sound that bad?

I always liked the 300M-- it was originally designed as the Eagle Vision replacement, but when that company went away, they kept it as a Chrysler car. Something about the analogue clock and wood/leather-- it always put me in mind of a Benz-- but one that is actually reliable
#29027 - in reply to #29021
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Author
Posted 7/5/2006 9:25 PM
AsianML

Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
Re: 3.5 V6 Questions

I think the newer 3.5s are 3.5L. The older, "first" 350's used a 3.7, at least the W163 ML350's used a 3.7
#29156 - in reply to #29027
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Author
Posted 7/6/2006 1:18 AM
AndrewAZ

Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
Re: 3.5 V6 Questions

AsianML - 7/5/2006 6:25 PM

I think the newer 3.5s are 3.5L. The older, "first" 350's used a 3.7, at least the W163 ML350's used a 3.7


Yes you are correct. For a short time the S class also used the "350" 3.7 liter motor at the end of its life cycle. The 3.7 V6 is an odd engine to me since I can only think of 2 cars that used it the ML and S class and for a very short time. I have driven ML 350 loaners with the 3.7 and I cant really tell a difference to the 3.2 V6. But the new 3.5L v6 is butter smooth and has a load of power.
#29219 - in reply to #29156
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Author
Posted 7/6/2006 1:25 AM
iNeon

Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
Re: 3.5 V6 Questions

This still does not clear up my question--

Is this 3.5 the Chrysler engine that has been used for a decade? Originally it made around 215hp, but it has been continually improved to make 250hp/250tq in it's latest version.

That is only 18 less horsepower-- 8 ft/pds torque--these may be added very easily with different programing of the PCM and a different exhaust. So really-- is this engine a Chrysler engine?

Edited by iNeon 7/6/2006 1:28 AM
#29222 - in reply to #29219
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Author
Posted 7/6/2006 2:19 AM
AndrewAZ

Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
Re: 3.5 V6 Questions

iNeon - 7/5/2006 10:25 PM

This still does not clear up my question--

Is this 3.5 the Chrysler engine that has been used for a decade? Originally it made around 215hp, but it has been continually improved to make 250hp/250tq in it's latest version.

That is only 18 less horsepower-- 8 ft/pds torque--these may be added very easily with different programing of the PCM and a different exhaust. So really-- is this engine a Chrysler engine?


It could be... But you would have to do some research. It not hard for a car company to lie about output and various things such as intakes can make a big difference along with software. I know at BMW the new 325I and 330I use the same engine everything I mean everything is the same the difference between them is 45 hp which is partly due to the variable intake on the 330I and software differences.
#29240 - in reply to #29222
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Author
Posted 7/6/2006 12:32 PM
Dahappybanana

Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
RE: 3.5 V6 Questions

I seriously doubt Mercedes would take an old Chrysler engine for use in their cars. The displacements are prolly very similar and thus the power would be similar also. However the Mercedes 3.5 is, from what I hear, a very sporty and peppy engine which to me doesnt sound like a Chrysler engine. As far as I know the only shared part is the old 5-speed transmission that Mercedes gave to Chrysler.
#29277 - in reply to #28946
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Author
Posted 7/6/2006 1:11 PM
iNeon

Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
Re: 3.5 V6 Questions

DaHappy--
You might read about something before you go attempting to drag it through the mud.

The Chrysler 3.5 is a very reliable and potent engine. It has been massaged and tweaked over the years and is absolutely bulletproof at this point-- there are no faults left in it.

From what I hear, the w211 was pretty problematic at its launch, and these problems were addressed with the move to this 'mystery' 3.5. Chrysler has never had massive electrical problems in recent years and Mercedes is notorious for it-- They have promised consumers less problematic cars, and it really seems to me that they might source these parts from their corporate parts bins.

Why reinvent the wheel is what I'm saying.
#29280 - in reply to #29277
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Author
Posted 7/6/2006 4:21 PM
AndrewAZ

Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
Re: 3.5 V6 Questions

iNeon - 7/6/2006 10:11 AM

DaHappy--
You might read about something before you go attempting to drag it through the mud.

The Chrysler 3.5 is a very reliable and potent engine. It has been massaged and tweaked over the years and is absolutely bulletproof at this point-- there are no faults left in it.

From what I hear, the w211 was pretty problematic at its launch, and these problems were addressed with the move to this 'mystery' 3.5. Chrysler has never had massive electrical problems in recent years and Mercedes is notorious for it-- They have promised consumers less problematic cars, and it really seems to me that they might source these parts from their corporate parts bins.

Why reinvent the wheel is what I'm saying.


the W211 launched with the the same 3.2liter that mercedes has used for a very very long time. Since 1998 which I think is a year before the merger. It wasnt untill 2005 did they put the new 3.5 liter engine in the mercedees. As said before they might be similar but I doubt it.

A little more research about the chrysler engine the 3.5L chrysler is actually the 3.3L bored out to 3.5L and the engine is a single over head cam SOHC. The mercedes 3.5 L is a DOHC (dual over head cam) engine. So I think its safe to say the only thing in common is the engine lable size. But the if you get down to the nit picking the mercedes engine is actually smaller than 3.5L and the chrysler is a tad larger than 3.5L, But the big difference is the SOHC vs DOHC.
#29305 - in reply to #29280
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Author
Posted 7/6/2006 4:23 PM
AndrewAZ

Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
Re: 3.5 V6 Questions

AndrewAZ - 7/6/2006 1:21 PM

iNeon - 7/6/2006 10:11 AM

DaHappy--
You might read about something before you go attempting to drag it through the mud.

The Chrysler 3.5 is a very reliable and potent engine. It has been massaged and tweaked over the years and is absolutely bulletproof at this point-- there are no faults left in it.

From what I hear, the w211 was pretty problematic at its launch, and these problems were addressed with the move to this 'mystery' 3.5. Chrysler has never had massive electrical problems in recent years and Mercedes is notorious for it-- They have promised consumers less problematic cars, and it really seems to me that they might source these parts from their corporate parts bins.

Why reinvent the wheel is what I'm saying.


the W211 launched with the the same 3.2liter that mercedes has used for a very very long time. Since 1998 which I think is a year before the merger. It wasnt untill 2005 did they put the new 3.5 liter engine in the mercedees. As said before they might be similar but I doubt it.

A little more research about the chrysler engine the 3.5L chrysler is actually the 3.3L bored out to 3.5L and the engine is a single over head cam SOHC. The mercedes 3.5 L is a DOHC (dual over head cam) engine. So I think its safe to say the only thing in common is the engine lable size. But the if you get down to the nit picking the mercedes engine is actually smaller than 3.5L and the chrysler is a tad larger than 3.5L, But the big difference is the SOHC vs DOHC.


Also just to point out a few more things. If you think the chrysler took the old mercedes 3.2L well both are SOHC but the merc uses 3 vales vs chryslers 4 vales and getting down to the nit pick again both differ in size but share the same lable.
#29306 - in reply to #29305
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Author
Posted 7/6/2006 8:42 PM
iNeon

Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
Re: 3.5 V6 Questions

Upon further reading, it has been presented to me that the new-generation 3.5 and the older 3.5(rebored 3.3) are completly different beasties--

The new 3.5 was designed post-merge in around 2003.
#29364 - in reply to #29306
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Author
Posted 7/7/2006 12:18 PM
taroliw

Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
RE: 3.5 V6 Questions

Well, I can confirm that the M272 (Mercedes 3.5L) is actually based upon the M112 (Mercedes 3.2L), which dates back to at least 1997. I owned a MY1998 CLK320 nearly 125K miles and never had a single mechanical or electrical problem with the 3.2 -- I suspect the quality figures MB get dinged for aren't about major mechanical or construction issues.

I recently took delivery of a 2006 SLK350 (with the 3.5L M272), and went looking for as much information as I could find. You can see a training PDF for the engine posted at http://www.billsden.org/mercedes/slk/docs/train_engine_m272.pdf. If you were looking for telltale signs that the 3.5 really is Mercedes engine and not just "M112 based" for convenience, I'd point you to the detail about the oil level sensor. The M112 (and it's V8 stablemate) were capable of sensing and reporting the actual oii level in the engine as well as the clarity of the oil (which was part of the FSS calculation). The M272 removes this capability -- it was apparently confusing to customers in general, but I always liked it... -- but didn't physically remove the switch piece from the engine casting. Instead they just retired all but one of the leads connected to it.

I don't know where the Chrysler 3.5 comes from, but I suspect these are not the same engine. On a more visceral level, if Chrysler and MB started drivetrain or chasis swapping, I'd have to think long and hard about my next automobile purchase. After all, do I really want a MB that's just an upscale Chrysler in the same way that several Infiniti, Lexus, Audi, and Jaguar models are upscale from other makes?

I would point out that BMW have smartly started advertising along these lines -- brand and corporate purity -- but sadly try to pass off DaimlerChrysler -- why oh why did they ever change the name? -- as another of these rebranding arrangements. As much for Chrysler's sake as Mercedes', these lines need to remain as distinct as possible in order to remain relevant in the marketplace. In most of these rebranding arrangements, you can get 80-90% of the car for 60-70% of the price... where's the drive to upscale? How does one ride around in them without wondering why they spent more to get a very similar car?

#29511 - in reply to #28946
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Author
Posted 7/7/2006 2:18 PM
iNeon

Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
Re: 3.5 V6 Questions

See-- Maybe I just don't get it.

How is a Chrysler part on a Mercedes-Benz going to hurt anyone or anything?

You know the BMW MiniCooper... It has a miniaturized neon engine in its miniturized engine bay... Masses still love them and I have never heard anyone say "i dislike my mini cooper because of who designed the engine"-- I only want credit where it is due.

The original Automatic Climate Control was a Chrysler item(sadly.. heh heh) and the A/C compressor on my antiqued 240D is from a GM vehicle. How is that any different?
#29543 - in reply to #28946
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Author
Posted 7/7/2006 2:30 PM
AsianML

Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
Re: 3.5 V6 Questions

<div align="justify">Some of us are elitist snobs..... </div>

Edited by AsianML 7/7/2006 2:31 PM
#29544 - in reply to #29543
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Author
Posted 7/7/2006 3:13 PM
AndrewAZ

Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
Re: 3.5 V6 Questions

iNeon - 7/7/2006 11:18 AM

See-- Maybe I just don't get it.

How is a Chrysler part on a Mercedes-Benz going to hurt anyone or anything?

You know the BMW MiniCooper... It has a miniaturized neon engine in its miniturized engine bay... Masses still love them and I have never heard anyone say "i dislike my mini cooper because of who designed the engine"-- I only want credit where it is due.

The original Automatic Climate Control was a Chrysler item(sadly.. heh heh) and the A/C compressor on my antiqued 240D is from a GM vehicle. How is that any different?


Other way around... Chrysler didnt buy mercedes... Mercedes took over chrysler. So the impact will be on chrysler. You can see it now chrysler has some great cars that are built on older mercedes. Such as the 300C built on the pre 2003 E class. The little 2 door coupe (crossfire) is built on the old SLK chase. So far I have not heard of anything going from chrysler to mercedes I have only heard of mercedes given old parts and chases to chrysler. I think the new Jeeps drive train is strait from the W163 ML...
#29548 - in reply to #29543
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Author
Posted 7/7/2006 3:23 PM
iNeon

Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
Re: 3.5 V6 Questions

And we all know why Mercedes wanted Chrysler, right?

The trucks.
#29553 - in reply to #29548
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Author
Posted 7/7/2006 3:32 PM
taroliw

Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
Re: 3.5 V6 Questions

iNeon - 7/7/2006 12:23 PM And we all know why Mercedes wanted Chrysler, right? The trucks.
Or, more generally, to go down-market. Which is what made Chrysler's move to go up-market so curious. It wasn't just about this model or that... they wanted a downscale brand, one that would bring higher volume with more moderate price... which is something Mercedes will likely never (and probably shouldn't, IMHO, to avoid dilution of value) accomplish.

But let's put something else to bed. It was Daimler-Benz AG, not Mercedes, that acquired Chrysler. DBAG and Mercedes were not one and the same, since DBAG holds several companies. Chrysler was just another on the pile. I suppose this was part of the reason they insisted on renaming DBAG as part of the deal, but I think in the long run it just generated more confusion than anything. It's still a German AG that holds an American subsidiary. 

#29559 - in reply to #29553
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Author
Posted 7/7/2006 3:35 PM
taroliw

Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
Re: 3.5 V6 Questions

AsianML - 7/7/2006 11:30 AM
Some of us are elitist snobs..... :rolleyes:
Good... then you recognize part of the messaging of the Mercedes brand. Because if we (or, more importantly, Mercedes-Benz) forgets that, then the brand will die. Apparently Dieter gets it, hence his recent comments about renewing the brand's identity. This has ruffled feathers in some corners, given responses on BenzWorld. But in this game Brand and messaging is key... lose that, and you might as well pack up and go home.


Edited by taroliw 7/7/2006 3:36 PM
#29560 - in reply to #29544
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Author
Posted 7/7/2006 3:54 PM
taroliw

Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
Re: 3.5 V6 Questions

iNeon - 7/7/2006 11:18 AM See-- Maybe I just don't get it. How is a Chrysler part on a Mercedes-Benz going to hurt anyone or anything? You know the BMW MiniCooper...
Ah, but see? Therein lies a good example. Notice how BMW markets itself as "pure, not distracted by a parent company" and doesn't badge the Mini Cooper as a BMW? That's no accident, my friend. They would no more want a Frankenstein "kit car" Mini assocated with the BMW brand than they would other parts-sharing ventures. Mind you, some of these ventures result in really great cars, but they are usually niche, boutique affairs.

I have never heard anyone say "i dislike my mini cooper because of who designed the engine"
No, the enthusiasts are just glad someone pulled Mini's ass out of the fire and they still get to enjoy driving them.


The original Automatic Climate Control was a Chrysler item(sadly.. heh heh) and the A/C compressor on my antiqued 240D is from a GM vehicle. How is that any different?
Oh, sure. Parts sharing happens all over the place. But when part of your brand heritage is in engine, drivetrain, and chasis design it's a bad sign when you start sourcing those from other people. Hell, Mercedes actually builds it's new 7G transmission itself rather than sourcing it, even though they happily use ZF in other places. The only people who source are those who can't build.

Just look at what is happening in the hybrid and fuel cell space. We see the formation of apparently unholy alliances because those who haven't bothered investing are desperate and need to align themselves with those who are better prepared. I guess what this results in is general confusion of how cars that start sharing key components (note, not "parts") can really differentiate. For some, what makes a car special isn't just a few body panels, some leather, and a few splashes of wood and chrome... but instead something more to do with it's design, engineering, and craftsmanship from the bottom up. And, frankly, that's why the American brands still get their ass handed to them on a regular basis. They lost what made them special in their misquided attempts to remain "competitive."

#29565 - in reply to #29543
Top of the page Bottom of the page
« View previous thread :: View next thread »
Page 1 of 3 123
Forum Jump :
All times are EST.  The time is now 2:34:49 PM.

Execution: 0.320 seconds, 75 cached, 25 executed.