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Lockers revisited
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Posted 8/21/2006 11:59 PM
cyntaxx
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Date registered: Aug 2006
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Vehicle(s): 2002 G500
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Lockers revisited

So I've been reading up on how to use the lockers, when to use them, and trying to absorb as much as I can. But I have to admit one thing: I've yet to try it. While the truck is in the shop getting the transfer case control module replaced, I thought I'd pick your brains briefly on what to do. Please bear with me as I've never owned or been around a vehicle with this type of ordinance.

First off, I'm pretty sure my truck has never had its lockers engaged or used whatsoever. Am I at risk of them seizing or failing on me? I've read about "exercising" them and I'm a bit worried that they won't function properly. My truck is a 2002 so it has indeed been a while!

Secondly, I've read that you engage the lockers in the order of: center, rear, then front. And off dry pavement only. But beyond that my knowledge gets a bit murky. I understand that the lockers, once engaged, guarantees that your wheels spin at the same speed. Does this mean that torque is still equally distributed as if the differential is unlocked? What exactly is the benefit to having the wheels spin at the same speed? Does it prevent traction loss? And what does the center locker do exactly? I ask the question about preventing traction loss because it seems you're supposed to engage the locker preemptively and not as a reaction to already having lost traction or being stuck.

Finally, what are the strategies on which locker to use and when to use it? I know they have to engage in a certain order, but what necessitates each being locked? Again, posts netted from my search taught me that the center is the first one to resort to if I were to run into difficult terrain, then rear, and finally front.

When I get the truck back, I will take it out to a grassy area or dirt road and give it a shot. What should I expect when I engage each locker? I know I will lose steering ability with the front locker engaged, but what about the center and rear? Note that I won't be on tough terrain, just a flat, dry, dirty or grass area.

Maybe someone could walk me through, for instance, how it would work climbing a steep hill or use some other example? I tried following the one on 4x4abc's website but felt it didn't really address all my questions (maybe I'm asking the wrong ones).

Sorry for the long-winded post and thanks in advance!
#40126
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Posted 8/22/2006 9:09 AM
cyntaxx
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Date registered: Aug 2006
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Vehicle(s): 2002 G500
Posts: 248
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RE: Lockers revisited

Ze Bocaina - 8/22/2006 12:04 AM

The best teacher you will find is Harald. Go to his site.

http://www.4x4abc.com/jeep101/engage-diff-lock.html


Yes, I read through that several times but was still a bit confused about the specific questions I posted above. His scenario with approaching and going over the rock is helpful, but he mentions that the front right (passenger side I'm assuming) wheel's suspension is extended and does not have traction. How is this possible if the left wheel is on top of the rock? Wouldn't the majority of the weight be shifted to the right wheel(s)?

Edited by cyntaxx 8/22/2006 9:10 AM
#40159 - in reply to #40126
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Posted 8/22/2006 9:53 AM
KERR

Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
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RE: Lockers revisited

cyntaxx - 8/21/2006 11:59 PM

First off, I'm pretty sure my truck has never had its lockers engaged or used whatsoever. Am I at risk of them seizing or failing on me? I've read about "exercising" them and I'm a bit worried that they won't function properly. My truck is a 2002 so it has indeed been a while!

Well the locker its self will not go bad, ( they can brake but im sure you will never have that problem) What they mean by exercise them in just letting the air pump lock and un lock them. Nothing major If there is a problem is would be in a "air line or pump" but i dont know of any that have had a real locker failure.

Secondly, I've read that you engage the lockers in the order of: center, rear, then front. And off dry pavement only. Yes, and the dash will only let you do it that way. The reason for driving on dry pavement is all the GEARS in the axles, transercase and tranmission are locked ( hence the locker) there for there is no slippage, so if you turn right the gears have all the extra stress of making the inside tires turn as fast as the out side tire, which can brake the drifferentals. Try it in grass and you will understand... its about impossiable to turn.

I understand that the lockers, once engaged, guarantees that your wheels spin at the same speed. Yes if all diffs are locked all 4 tires turn 100 precent of the time at the same speed.

Does this mean that torque is still equally distributed as if the differential is unlocked? When the diff is unlocked the torue is not distributed eaqually. You old truck had a positraction. So when you where on the gas the rear end would "lock" up so both tires would spinn. The G is AWD so you dont have that. That is why we have lockers. Think of it as a push button possi unit.

What exactly is the benefit to having the wheels spin at the same speed? Does it prevent traction loss? And what does the center locker do exactly?

if all the axles / tires turn the same amount you can go twice as far for the most part, also if you have one or two tires off the ground the other tires will still move the car. Think back to your truck if one tire only had the power that truck would have spunn the 1 TIRE for ever with the torque they make. With a locker / possi unit in the back it makes both tires turn under load. The lockers just make the "load" full time. The center lock splits the power from the front and rear axles 50%. I dont know the numbers off the top of my head but lest say a G runs at 20 % front and 80% rear. If you get in snow or mud the 20% front does not do a lot.... So if you lock the center diff the power is split 50% front and rear.


I ask the question about preventing traction loss because it seems you're supposed to engage the locker preemptively and not as a reaction to already having lost traction or being stuck. each persons does it differently. I like to go as far as i can then lock them as needed... unless it looks really nasty. You also have to remember we have traction controll that does a grate job with out the lockers.

Finally, what are the strategies on which locker to use and when to use it? I know they have to engage in a certain order, but what necessitates each being locked? Again, posts netted from my search taught me that the center is the first one to resort to if I were to run into difficult terrain, then rear, and finally front.

Yes you are correct... Think of the Center for normal off roading if you want to be real safe. rear if you get into trouble. The the front is like your get out of jail free card. At the end of the day use your head. You just have to start off on eazy stuff and as you learn your vehicle and how to use it everything will make sense.


When I get the truck back, I will take it out to a grassy area or dirt road and give it a shot. What should I expect when I engage each locker? I know I will lose steering ability with the front locker engaged, but what about the center and rear? Note that I won't be on tough terrain, just a flat, dry, dirty or grass area.

For the most part you will not notice anything but heavier steering with the center and rear diff locked. Like you said steering is almost lost with the front locked.

Maybe someone could walk me through, for instance, how it would work climbing a steep hill or use some other example?

um... ok lets say your climbing a steep hill unlocked.... the g goes so far and the traction light start to blink causing traction controll to start rotating how the tires " spinn" ( IE like passanger front and drivers rear, then drivers front passangers rear or in some strange cases just the front or rear tires) You then stop and engage the center diff ( some times it take a little time) then try again.. You should be able to get a lot futher up the hill becuase to power is being split front to rear. Now lets say its wet up top.. You again become stuck becuse the tires are spinning like before passanger F and driver R or vice versa. You lock the rear diff and now you have both rear tires turning the same amount which "should" let you go the rest of the way up the hill. If not you will now be spinning both rear tires and one front tire. Now you lock the front diff and all 4 tires turn 100%.

The trick is not digging your self in to deep. once all 4 tires spinn your either going to go or sink in a hurry.

I know of two trails around here that you could take a two wheel drive truck on with no problems when its dry. Its hard packed red clay mud. But when you ad rain its almost impassable. I have been out there twice when the only way we got out was in high rage all the diffs locked and wide open on the gas.

The best part of lockers is having friends go " that just not right" when your locked and climbing stuff you cant walk up.

#40162 - in reply to #40126
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Posted 8/22/2006 10:28 AM
Brent
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Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: SW Colorado USA
Vehicle(s): '13 Wolfsburg GTI
Posts: 1754
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RE: Lockers revisited

With the lockers off your truck has full time 4wd. This is essentially how you should drive it in just about any road situation, snow, rain etc. In this mode the power from the engine is looking for the path of least resistance. If you make a sharp corner and apply throttle, usually the inside front tire, the one with the least traction would spin. Now your truck has a traction control system to prevent this but sans the intervention the power escapes using the path of leats resistance, the tire with the least traction.
With no locker engaged and the traction control off, one tire on an icy patch could stop the truck. All of the power gets out through that wheel because there is nothing to rediredt it.

Locking the center now means that 50% of the power goes to the front and 50% to the back. Now it would take one front wheel and one back wheel on ice to stop forward progress. If both fronts or both backs are on ice, you still have the opposite end to move the truck. Locking the rear next gives you three wheel drive. You can still come to a stop if the back tires and one front tire are on ice. Locking the front now means that it only takes one tire of the four with traction to move the truck, any one of the four will do as they are all locked together.

Now the question of when and where to use them properly is probably to big a question to answer. It takes some hands on IMO. 99% of what you are likely to encounter off road can be done easily with just the center diff locked. This puts you on even footing with 99% of the "4wd" vehicles on/off the road. Even when I am looking for trouble off road
the rear locker is generally more than sufficient. I usually only engage it if I am fairly sure one or more wheels will lift off the ground. If I know that I am going to get the truck cross axled and one or more wheels off the ground then the front locker comes in handy. This is a fairly rare occurance. One place you could try this out is in a roadside ditch. Drive into it slightly diagonal where the one front tire will come off the ground. With no lockers you are now stuck. Locking the center will likely push you farther forward until you are teetering on opposite corners, two wheels in the air. Now at least the rear locker is needed and depending on traction maybe the front.

The best thing to do is make the trip west in a couple of weeks for the G-Treffen. Hands on you will get the hang of it very quickly
#40166 - in reply to #40126
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Posted 8/22/2006 12:44 PM
diehardg
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Date registered: May 2006
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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RE: Lockers revisited

cyntaxx - 8/22/2006 10:09 PM

Yes, I read through that several times but was still a bit confused about the specific questions I posted above. His scenario with approaching and going over the rock is helpful, but he mentions that the front right (passenger side I'm assuming) wheel's suspension is extended and does not have traction. How is this possible if the left wheel is on top of the rock? Wouldn't the majority of the weight be shifted to the right wheel(s)?


Don't forget that you have two more tires behind you. When you are climbing something, mostlikely your front tires are higher than rear tires. This means you have more weight on rear two wheels than one front tire in the air. See attached pic for what I'm saying.

Yasu



(IMG_18290037.jpg)



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#40187 - in reply to #40159
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Posted 8/23/2006 11:34 AM
cyntaxx
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Date registered: Aug 2006
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Vehicle(s): 2002 G500
Posts: 248
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RE: Lockers revisited

Excellent info guys! Exactly what I was looking for and then some.

Your honor, I have no further questions at this time.

I may have some fun this weekend with the G. Hope I don't scare the girlfriend too much!
#40423 - in reply to #40126
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Posted 8/23/2006 12:53 PM
W5YK
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Date registered: May 2006
Location: San Diego
Vehicle(s): 2002 G500, Unimog U2450,
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RE: Lockers revisited

If you are curious to see if your diff locker control system is still working correctly, there is a very simple test you can do that checks out a lot of things very quickly:

Raise the hood of the truck, so you will be able to hear the locker vacuum pump.

Turn the key to the accessory position, but do not start the engine.

Press the center switch on the diff-locker panel.

You should hear the vacuum pump come on. It's really loud, you will be in no doubt about whether it's running or not.

After 30 seconds or so, the vacuum pump should shut off.

If this works as described above, then you can be 99% sure that the control system is OK. It checks the integrity of the pump, the pressure switch, the check valves, the air hoses, and the solenoids. If there is any problem with any of those items, then the vacuum pump will not shut off, it will run continuously. (If you start the engine, the pump will run continuously, regardless - this test only works with the engine off)

To see if the lockers are actually engaging, it's usually recommended to do it on a loose surface or grass. However, I have locked mine on the road, with grippy tires, and haven't broken them. Mind you, you'll probably crash, since you won't be able to steer. I locked the center diff at 70mph a few times to demonstrate to myself the theory that it shouldn't matter, and it doesn't.
#40439 - in reply to #40423
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Posted 8/23/2006 4:35 PM
KERR

Date registered: Dec 1899
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Re: Lockers revisited

Die hard, that picture is crazy. i would have pooped my self twice.
#40469 - in reply to #40126
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Posted 8/25/2006 1:38 PM
hipine



Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
5000
One additional point for consideration - care of equipment

If you have the center and rear diff locks, but the front open, and you lift either front wheel.....then you have no torque going to the front wheel that's still on the ground.  This isn't obvious because the lifted wheel will not spin (In order to do so the front DS would have to spin which it can't because it's locked to the rear which is locked to the ground presuming one rear wheel is still on the ground), but in this situation (center and rear locked, one front wheel lifted)  ALL  power for forward motion is going through the rear drive line.  And if one of those rear wheels lifts, then ALL power is going through a single rear axle half shaft.

Lucky for us MB designed the rear axles to take this abuse, BUT in the interest of taking as it as easy as possible on the equipment, I've changed my MO with lockers.

I used to engage front, engage rear when needed, and only engage front when REALLY needed.  Now, If I'm going to face a cross-axled situation (which is most of the reason I engage the rear) then I'll usually engage both lockers unless the steering effect might be dangerous (which it usually isn't if one front wheel's going to be off the ground!).  By having both lockers engaged the front wheel that's on the ground can help pull the vehicle forward so all the load isn't taken by the rear.

That's my current MO anyway.

Any thoughts?

-Dave G.

#41040 - in reply to #40423
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Posted 8/25/2006 5:04 PM
Brent
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Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: SW Colorado USA
Vehicle(s): '13 Wolfsburg GTI
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RE: Lockers revisited

I operate in a similar fashion Dave. If I am going to need the rear, I will also engage the front unless I need to make a turn during the manuver. These are nuances that are hard to just type out, every situation off-road is a little different. Getting out and trying different things is the best way to figure out what is going to work for you.
#41065 - in reply to #40126
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Posted 8/25/2006 5:27 PM
hipine



Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
5000
RE: Lockers revisited

....Getting out and trying different things is the best way to figure out what is going to work for you.

Totally!  That's why I look to guys like you and Harald who A) are able to get out and put these things into practice more than some other of us and B) have it in your head to actually THINK about what you're doing and why.  I really appreciate your feedback.

Sure hope you can get away for at least the California/Corkscrew day.  It'd be good to get out on the trail with you again.  So close and yet so far, I don't think we've been out since Crested Butte and I won't care to admit how long ago that was!

All the best and thanks again, pard.

-Dave G.

#41067 - in reply to #41065
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Posted 8/25/2006 6:10 PM
Brent
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Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: SW Colorado USA
Vehicle(s): '13 Wolfsburg GTI
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RE: Lockers revisited

The flip side, that I know you were subliminally considering too , is that with both lockers, rather than just the rear, you are less likely to have any wheelspin, which is obviously tough on terra firma. Tread Lightly is something we should be practicing as often as possible

Try and make it for the Calif/Corkscrew drive. I want to take the willing down Poughkipsee Gulch a short distance to the "playground" for demos on how to be stupid in a G-wagen I had another brief side shot into Velocity basin just for the scenery. It promises to be a good time.



(DSC02792.JPG)



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#41073 - in reply to #40126
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Posted 8/25/2006 11:30 PM
hipine



Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
5000
Trail plans

We'll definitely be there. One of my CA buddies who's coming along has a nice built up CJ5. He only trails it though, no long distance driving so he won't have it with him. I plan to let him do a good share of the driving in my G as much as he's willing. Looking forward to the side excusions you mentioned.  And last but not least, heading into Ouray for a nice dinner with the gang.  Can't imagine a better day.

-Dave G.

#41122 - in reply to #41073
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Posted 8/26/2006 10:04 AM
Braingears
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Date registered: Apr 2006
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Re: Lockers revisited

When I am going off road road, I will typically lock my center TC.
When I am climbing terrain where I think one or more tires may come off the ground, I will lock both the rear and front diff.
When I am traveling through soft areas, I will attempt to prejudge things. You have to be carefull in muddy areas. While travelling through muddy areas, maintaining your momentum is very important. The mud and/or soft stuff can turn you in every direction. If you have your front diffs locked, you will attempt to correct your direction, but the truck will continue to track straight. If it is a narrow trail, you will know it...
#41169 - in reply to #40126
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Posted 8/26/2006 6:16 PM
cyntaxx
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Date registered: Aug 2006
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Vehicle(s): 2002 G500
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RE: Lockers revisited

Brent,

Just wanted to tell you that your G is simply awesome looking!
#41245 - in reply to #41073
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