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More 617a
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Posted 12/16/2006 11:10 AM
Kuzuki

Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
More 617a

Hi guys,

will be doing a 110 to 617a in January. Today i'll be closing a a deal and geting a running 300sd as a donor vehicle. Will have engine checked (compresion, boost and IP) by a reputable diesel mecanic. After i'm done with the 300sd seller will repurchase vehicle sans engine, tranny and small stuff.
Now my question regarding engine supports. Have read that some have used original 617 from the 300 Gd and modified the oil pan to clear the fron diff. Others have moved the engine forward 1 inch and had supports mad.
Wich way to go?
DC is asking $631 for supports and rubber thingys (don't have correct name). My local metal shop could make some supports for less than $100
thx and rgds
Mike
#56828
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Author
Posted 12/16/2006 12:37 PM
dai
Expert




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
2000
Re: More 617a

The stock GD motor mounts are far stronger than the sedan alloy motor mounts. The GD mounts that connect the motor to the mount are forged steel and the mounts are bolted to the rubber assembly and to the frame. They are worth the money if the truck is going to be used off road. The are designed to withstand the forces that want to rip the motor off the mounts in impact/bounce situations. When I bought replacements I recall the were around US$100 each for the rubber motor mounts. I am sure the expensive parts are the forged arms that bolt to the block. I would try to source them used if at all possible or see if your local shop can make them, as you say. I would not use the alloy supports.

-Dai
#56831 - in reply to #56828
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Author
Posted 12/16/2006 1:31 PM
AlanMcR
Expert




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, CA, Los Altos
Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL
Posts: 3500
2000
Re: More 617a

As a counter point, the arms on my 96 G are aluminum. I think the 24v 6 cylinder is quite a bit heavier, too.
#56836 - in reply to #56831
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Author
Posted 12/16/2006 1:51 PM
dai
Expert




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
2000
Re: More 617a

Alan, is the bolt pattern to the block the same and do they bolt up to the heavy duty G motor mounts? I think the standard sedan alloy arms are pretty thin at the motor mount end for use in the G. I have a spare set if anyone wants to give them a shot. I just worry about shock loading. I think the sedan alloy mounts are designed to fail in a severe accident so the motor will go through the transmission tunnel, something like that.

-Dai
#56838 - in reply to #56836
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Posted 12/16/2006 6:08 PM
Steve D
Veteran




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Denver, CO
Vehicle(s): 1984 280GE cabrio; 2011 Ford Expedition
Posts: 112
100
RE: More 617a

Do you have the round rubber motor mounts? I have several customers that have done this conversion. They used the 300GD engine to rubber mounts, the diesel rubber mounts (usally only if they have the old round rubber mounts) and the right hand frame mount(unless you have the round type mount). The newer style rubber mouts are the same shape, the difference is in the durometer rating on the rubber. The left side frame mount is the same on the 280GE with the new style rubber mounts. The old round style engine and frame mounts are NLA. Also make sure you save the 1st piece of the exhaust, turbo to under the truck.

Edited by Steve D 12/16/2006 6:11 PM
#56848 - in reply to #56828
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Author
Posted 12/16/2006 9:33 PM
AlanMcR
Expert




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, CA, Los Altos
Vehicle(s): G300DT E300DT 230SL
Posts: 3500
2000
Re: More 617a

dai - 12/16/2006 10:51 AM

Alan, is the bolt pattern to the block the same and do they bolt up to the heavy duty G motor mounts? I think the standard sedan alloy arms are pretty thin at the motor mount end for use in the G. I have a spare set if anyone wants to give them a shot. I just worry about shock loading. I think the sedan alloy mounts are designed to fail in a severe accident so the motor will go through the transmission tunnel, something like that.

-Dai


The rubber motor mounts are the standard G motor mounts. I could measure various parts if you can give me the dimensions you care about. The mounts are buried under the gigantic 606 intake manifold on one side and the turbo on the other. Measuring won't be easy, and thus I'll only be able to get approximations +/- a couple of mm's.
#56862 - in reply to #56838
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Author
Posted 12/17/2006 1:07 AM
dai
Expert




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
2000
Re: More 617a

No reason to do that Alan. My thought is if those mount/arms are easier to get and bolt up to the 617 then Kuzuki might have another option.

I think the sedan alloy 617 motor mount arms are stout, but the forged G steel parts are probably many times stronger.

-Dai
#56884 - in reply to #56862
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Posted 12/17/2006 1:42 PM
hipine



Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
5000
RE: More 617a

As you probably know, I finished the 110->617a swap a couple weeks ago.  I had both factory and "1" forward" mounts in my hands during the swap and made the choice on the spot.

The only bummer with moving the engine forward an inch is that you don't just need to change the engine mounts, you need to change, or at least manage the effect on,  EVERY connection between the engine and rest of vehicle.  Drive shaft, throttle linkage, oil cooler lines, fuel lines, coolant hoses, shifter linkages, clutch slave line, etc.   In practicality, this usally just means a 1" thick drive shaft spacer "donut" on the transmission output flange, but even that can be non-trivial if the transmission you have does not have sufficeient space between trans case and flange to allow fitting longer bolts through the trans flange without removing it. (4speed amnual doesn't allow, I HEAR the auto box does)

That said, moving the engine forward also positively effects a couple things besides the oil pan.  It gives a little more room between the head/valvecover and the heater plenum/bulkhead.  This is handy when pulling hte valve cover for valve adjustments, and when changing the heater hose, if you've changed the water exit to the rear as I did (no difference if you leave water exit on side per factory).  It also gives a littel more room between the turbo outlet and the bulkhead, giving a little more freedom in when to make the down-turn with the exhaust.  Both of these fit into the "nice to have" category, however and are not at all necessary or even hardly noticeable, whichever way you go.

The biggest input I can make to you considering having mounts made is to be sure they can be made in a precision manner that results in the ONLY difference from factory being the 1" forward motion.  The reason I ultimately decided NOT to use the 1" forward mounts I had was that they just were not precision made.  They would have needed more shimming with washers or other stuff to get the engine sitting level side to side, and in the right spot vertically.  They were slotted where the mount bolts went through, not nice tight holes like I would have liked.  The ones I had also didn't accurately duplicate the angle where the engine bracket contacts the mount and would have needed some grinding or filing depending on where theengine ultimately ended up.  Bottom line, they just weren't made up to the standards I wanted.  In hindsight, I think that if they HAD been made to be a precision fit and to move the engine just 1" forward keeping all other things equal, I would have used them.  But in the end I chose to go with the factory mounts.

All the other stuff in the thread pertains to the factory mounts and I can't say too much more about those.  When Dai talks about them being much better than the sedan mounts, I don't know.  The pre-82 GD engine arms were forged alloy and they seem plenty strong to me.  I'ce never heard of failing engine mounts in a G of any vintage.  But I do know that MB changed the engine mounts in '82 on G-wagens for a reason, and their reasons for doing such things were ususally good.  Your post-82 trapezoidal mounts are probably better and longer lived than the early style rubber donut type (which I have), and you're probably not concerned with any "NLA" issues with the trapezoidal mounts.  I had originally wanted to convert to the trapezoidal types until I found out it required cutting off and welding new parts to the chassis.  One reason I went with the MB diesel engine was to avoid that kind of thing.  So I'm in with the 300GD alloy arms and rubber donuts and was able to buy all the parts new when I wanted them, but that was a year+ ago.

Anyway, I'm rambling, but I think that about summarizes the issues I saw.  I put mine in with the factory mounts, I use 2-stripe white springs, which effects the engine/axle relationship a little, but I haven't modified the oil pan yet.  I'll probably do something with it, or the axle bump stops, or both, before any off-raoding next year, but for on-road driving, I don't have any issues with clearance.

All the best,

-Dave G.



Edited by hipine 12/17/2006 1:48 PM
#56930 - in reply to #56828
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Author
Posted 12/17/2006 9:32 PM
dai
Expert




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
2000
RE: More 617a

Very thoughtfull info Dave. I made some images of the parts. The first photo is a new G motormount for my '85 GD. These are left and right handed. The second image is of the GD cast arm in place. A very heavy duty set up.

The other images are of the alloy stock mounts that are sedan mounts and the round motormount style that I think is what Dave installed. There is very limited clearance down under there so I show a 240D 123 chassis mount and also the 617.95 Turbo mounts with the engine shock absorber. I think these are strong but are of alloy construction so will not take the kind of extreme shockloading that the cast iron GD arms and mounts are capable of. I agree with Dave that the alloys should work fine. If the vehicle is treated with respect and not airborne much they should be plenty strong.



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#56976 - in reply to #56930
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Posted 12/18/2006 10:12 AM
Kuzuki

Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
RE: More 617a

All right. Thanks for all the info guys. Will get my engine with tranny at the end of january. Car I looked at on saturday had some legal issues to be worked out before i could pull engine. This will give me time to make up my mind and look at some conversions done here. Also if I were to go with original hardware, none is stocked here at DC so it's special order with a delivery time of about 2 weeks.
thx,
Mike
#57020 - in reply to #56828
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