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M110 engine replacement: gas versus turbo diesel
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Posted 2/5/2007 2:31 PM
gregschultz

Date registered: Jun 2006
Location: Roswell, GA
Vehicle(s): '86 300GD; 08 ML 320 cdi; 05 E320cdi
25
M110 engine replacement: gas versus turbo diesel

The dogs of irony are nipping at my heels: I had an exhaust leak and wanted to ceramic coat my exhaust manifold, so I took my 280 GE to a local, custom exhaust place recently. They did a great job, the engine compartment is noticable cooler, all is well.....EXCEPT for a rod knock that appeared out of no where! So, I'm using this (horrible) new set of circumstances as an opportunity to explore whether I should keep the M110 and fix it (likely new pistons, main bearings, timing chain and rear main seal); or, buy a rusted out Eurospec 280 SE and use the engine from that; or, buy a donor 300D or SD or DT or TDT to get the 617 motor out of it (and maybe the trans too).

It seems to me that re-building the bottom end of the M110 will be fairly expensive. And, since I don't know conclusively if the knock is from the wrist pin at the top of the rod or the main bearing at the bottom, I don't know if the crank has to be replaced. Mucho dinero, I think. However, my top end had a rebuild by the folks that I bought it from. So, I'll be "giving up" the benefit of that rebuilt top end....plus my snappy fresh exhaust manifold and EGR valve (tirelessly tracked down by Steve at EuroTruck!).

I also think that using the E-spec engine(from the 280SEL) will require using premium gas (higher compression), I'll have a slightly better top end; and the life expectancy of the engine will be a bit more uncertain that either of the other two options. I like this option the least.

With the 617 conversion, I should get a long engine life, have a relatively lower cost to rebuild (although turbos and injection pumps ain't cheap), and have SVO or 'real' biodiesel as an option for fuel ( I think that we have not yet seen the cieling on gas prices).

I'm leaning heavily towards doing the 617 conversion (or, more precisely, having it done). I've PM'd with a few of you about this, but I'm curious about a few things:
1. Will my G be slower with the 617 in it? I got the impression from Hipine's posts that his was slower "off the line"(does that concept even exist for our old Gs?) but had a greater top end. I clearly remember a mid-80s SD that I had easily cruising down the highway at 90 or 95 mph and it felt like it could go the length and width of Texas at speed.
2. Is it generally, a pretty close swap? I understand that the part where the motor mount attaches to the frame may have to move. Is that correct? Are there other things to look out for? Like, how do you handle the glow plug light in the dash? Warren T mentioned that the transmission linkages might need some fiddling, so I"m thinking of using the trans from the donor as well (my current trans is slipping - just a bit, but slipping nonethe less).

I should hasten to add that I've spent the last 5 or 6 days reading all of the old posts and threads I could find on the topic.

I expect to keep it for several more years and use it both as a driver and a 4 wheel adventuremobile up in the mountains north of Atlanta.

So, give me your best shot(s): what are your concerns and advice?
#61851
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Posted 2/5/2007 4:24 PM
sjtymko
G-Class Photo Host


Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Canada, AB, Sherwood Park (Edmonton)
Vehicle(s): 2002 G500, 2009 B200
Posts: 511
500
RE: M110 engine replacement: gas versus turbo diesel

For the most part, I'd base my decision on what engine you want to have in the vehicle.  If you rebuild the M110, it will go a very long way no doubt.  I would venture to guess that it will go a fair bit further than a donor/original 617A.  Most of these engines, while still very good, are getting a bit long in the tooth.  To rebuild a 617A will be a costly undertaking as well. 

Now, if you have been thinking about converting to a diesel anyway, then this is a great opportunity (possibly your only reasonable opportunity). 

A few words about the "car" automatics.  First off, do you currently have an auto?  If not, you have many parts to buy to convert; not a problem just think about it.  If you do have one, your G tranny will be better as it is stronger, has lower ratios, is more waterproof, etc.  If you want more on this, PM me.  However, the problem with the 280 auto and I think most of the "car" autos are that they all start in 2nd.  Take an engine that is a dog below 1500rpm and add a second gear start to this, and its very slow off the line.  This is where a manual will be better.  The other problem is that with 32" tires, a 4.9:1 r&p, and the auto, you are at about 4000rpm at 70 mph on paper.  Add in a torque convertor that, albiet has very little slip at this speed but does have some none-the-less, and you are at over 4000rpm on a diesel.  That sucker is loud and your fuel savings goes out the tail pipe:banghead:

I don't want to discourage you, just think that the MB engineers geared all of their turbodiesels much higher (350GD= 4.11:1 r&p and 1:1 4th; 290GDT= 3.72:1 r&p and 1:1 4th; the rest of the 463 series had an overdrive TC, usually higher r&p gears and an overdrive tranny).  With a 617A in there reving that high so much, be sure you monitor your EGT and possible take precautions by putting in higher gears.  This being said, others have had success with their swaps and like them very much.  I have also talked with many who are not happy with them.

Sorry this is so long and rambling, I just want you to think of your options considering other factors.  I have a 617A and auto and I like it but do see some problems.  I drove a 280 with an automatic and liked it much more for urban driving than my diesel.  If my truck had higher top gears (overdrive or r&p) I think it'd be perfect on the highway but even worse in the city due to the 2nd gear start.  I'd have to make it kickdown at each start which yields a much faster start.

 Steve

#61862 - in reply to #61851
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Posted 2/5/2007 5:52 PM
hipine



Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
5000
RE: M110 engine replacement: gas versus turbo diesel

Exchange crank and bearings for M110 from Metric Motors = $730

http://www.mercedesengines.net/proddetail.asp?prod=280recon

If the problem is the small end of the rod, less money to buy just a replacement rod of the correct sizing and weight.

Remember that any 617A you buy will be an unknown quantity.  People who bought them (used 617As) and got LESS than promised far out number those who got more.  If I were you, I'd plan on spending $2-3k on any 617A you're going to buy, either right off, or in the forseeable future.  Like Steve said, they're getting tired.

As far as performance goes, there's no free lunch.  Basically the VG080 transfer case in the 460G won't take much more power than the M110 gives out, so even if you have it at your disposal, it'll be wise to take it easy with the right foot.  I was really THRILLED with the power I was getting from my 617A, till I found out that if I kept using that power, I'd smoke the turbo and exhaust valves before long.  Now that I'm back to keeping EGTs under 1200 as folks who know about these things recommend, I find the power very comparable to my M110, just available in a different part of the rev range.  Meaning I can do hills at lower revs in 4th gear that my M110 required winding out in 3rd to make the same forward progress.

What I did get, is exactly what I was after.  Better driveability - being able to run a gear higher most of the time, and better fuel economy (19-20 with the 617A vs consistent 12 with the M110 in my driving).  I also got the benefits of turbo helping at high altiudes where I drive all the time, but that's not super significant, except as results in the driveability mentioned.

But aside from those two, there's not much difference.  My 460 was never particularly fast, and it still isn't, and I don't care about that.  I got what I was after.

I have the "donut" type motor mounts, and I didn't have to move anything on the chassis to make the M110 to 617A swap when I used motor arms from a 300GD with donut engine mounts (but I hear these are NLA).  I don't know anything about having to move a portion of the chassis motor mount.  Warren mentioned it to me in a conversation the other day, but I was a little baffled.  A check of the chassis part numbers for 300GD vs 280GE in the '84 type vintage would provide the last word.  Glow plug light is the least of your worries.  It's just an output from teh glow relay.  Put a light anywhere you like.  For some reason my truck had a "seatbelt warning" lamp to the left of the temp gauge, so that's my glow light now.  Some day I'll figure a way to transplant the orange lens with little "fillament" icon from a spare GD instrument I have, but I'm not in a hurry.  You don't really need the light as you can hear teh relay "clunk" when it's done.  But the light is nice for diagnostics as it flashes if a glow plug goes out.

ARB mounts are on their way to Steve's shop.  Shipped last Friday.  I need $120, total parts and shipping, between the two of you.  You guys gan fight over how to split it.  :^)

All the best,

Dave G.

#61884 - in reply to #61851
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Posted 2/6/2007 1:15 AM
dai
Expert




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
2000
Re: M110 engine replacement: gas versus turbo diesel

I would consider using the engine and transmission out of a sedan together and keep all of the linkage intact if you are going for a 617.95 conversion with an autobox. There is clever engineering to make them work well together. I think you can get that combo to start in first. It is strong and it is possible to get a very well done rebuilt transmission from a company in CA with a two year warranty for under 8 bills. We put one in the TD a year ago and the total cost was under $850.00 installed. Runs great.

Most of the time a tired Turbo D 617 needs only new cylinder sleeves bored to the pistons, rings, bearings, a valve job and timing chain with new chain guides. It can be done without excessive cost unless new pistons and other components are needed.

A diesel of the 460 chassis era are fast enough. I don't have trouble accelerating with traffic even in my non turbo version. I tend to push it hard on the road and it goes 65 all day no problem. Around here that is the speed limit on the freeway. It has trouble on steep grades on the road and forces a downshift to third on a heavy grade. Off road I have not had problems on rather steep ground that I run it on in the low range. My truck has a 5 speed manual transmission. A diesel will cost much less per mile over time than a 280 gas motor. Diesel is a safe fuel to carry. Mine will be running on SVO or Bio D or diesel soon. For me there is no question about which motor to use. If my 88 hp unit was sick a 617A would be in there as soon as possible. I can't yet justify the change just because I would like a little more power, my stock unit continues to run strong.

-Dai
#61921 - in reply to #61884
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Posted 2/15/2007 3:38 PM
gregschultz

Date registered: Jun 2006
Location: Roswell, GA
Vehicle(s): '86 300GD; 08 ML 320 cdi; 05 E320cdi
25
RE: M110 engine replacement: gas versus turbo diesel

Okey dokey. I found a low miles (8n,000) '84 turbodiesel donor car. Shawn and Steve laughed pretty hard when they caught the first glimpse - however (shockingly) with a cold morning it starts on the first glow plug cycle; and, when running, the 'blow by' does NOT blow the oil filler cap off. So far, so good.

Before the engine pulling begins, should I run any engine cleaner thru the oil lubrication system? Should I run any cleaner thru the water/coolant system? Any fuel system cleaner thru the fuel system? (I guess I should put the word "cleaner" in quotes, since they are generally pretty harsh..but you get my drift.)

Once "done" what oil do you reccomend I use? Back in the day, I ran Rotella T 15w-40.

thanks
#63921 - in reply to #61851
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Posted 2/15/2007 4:28 PM
dai
Expert




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
2000
Re: M110 engine replacement: gas versus turbo diesel

I can recomend Diesel fuel purge by Lubromoly. MB approved and it works. Fill up a new fuel filter with it, purge the air and let it run. I would not run any cleaner flush throught the lubrication system. Change the oil and use a short first interval. I run Delo 15-40 but Rotella 15-40 is excellent as well. Something that would neutralize acid circulated through the cooling system might be a good idea but I don't have any specific products to mention. If you do this take the thermostat housing apart and pull out the thermostat. Fill the system until it flows past there and install the thermostat. It is easy to airlock the system there causing potential problems. I do this when I flush the system and do the final fill. It is an easy step, 4 bolts, and will save a lot of time. This insures the coolant is in contact with the thermostat. Get a complete set of new hoses. Not too expensive and at least you won't have issues in the near future related to funky hoses. Much easier to change them before you drop the motor in place. A new set of Continental Belts at this time as well. My opinion. It sounds like you found a decent motor. If it starts up as you say and settle into a pretty smooth idle from cold it should have a lot of life left in it. Adjust the valves cold to the cold settings and you should be good to go.

-Dai

Edited by dai 2/15/2007 4:34 PM
#63933 - in reply to #61921
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Posted 2/16/2007 10:15 AM
gregschultz

Date registered: Jun 2006
Location: Roswell, GA
Vehicle(s): '86 300GD; 08 ML 320 cdi; 05 E320cdi
25
RE: M110 engine replacement: gas versus turbo diesel

While googling Lubromoly Diesel Purge, I came across this link:

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/517/20797Diesel_Purge_How-To.pdf

pretty interesting.
#64013 - in reply to #61851
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Posted 2/16/2007 11:34 AM
Mark G

Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL USA
Vehicle(s): 1985 280GE LWB AT
50
RE: M110 engine replacement: gas versus turbo diesel

From direct experience I chose the path of least resistance in re-powering my 460 M110. I parked the truck for 2 months and researched every possibility. Ultimately I found a donor M110 engine to be my best choice in time, money, and technical issues. I was lucky and found a great condition E-spec engine. Be forewarned, even with a donor M110…it is NOT an direct swap out. You must retain and swap many original parts from you existing G spec M110. Good luck on your decision.
#64023 - in reply to #61851
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Posted 2/20/2007 1:17 PM
jonnyboy

Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
RE: M110 engine replacement: gas versus turbo diesel

Mark G - 2/16/2007 4:34 PM

From direct experience I chose the path of least resistance in re-powering my 460 M110. I parked the truck for 2 months and researched every possibility. Ultimately I found a donor M110 engine to be my best choice in time, money, and technical issues. I was lucky and found a great condition E-spec engine. Be forewarned, even with a donor M110…it is NOT an direct swap out. You must retain and swap many original parts from you existing G spec M110. Good luck on your decision.


I certainly second that.........it's not a straight swap, but doable....
#64478 - in reply to #64023
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