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PointedThree :  Vans, Trucks, SUVs and Other Forums : G-Class : driving off road... manual or auto

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driving off road... manual or auto
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Posted 3/15/2007 7:59 AM
mrdohc
Regular




Date registered: Jun 2006
Location: Markham ON Canada
Vehicle(s): MR2 230SL TT 300GD FJ Cruiser M695 Camry
Posts: 63
50
driving off road... manual or auto

i wonder there is any advantange or disadvantage between manual and auto transmission while drive off road??
#66974
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Posted 3/15/2007 10:03 AM
KERR

Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
Re: driving off road... manual or auto

it would depend on the vehicle and terrain...

I like a auto cause you use both feet on the brake and gas if you need to.. hard to use two feet on three pedals.

My friends that race in the baja will only run autos as well.

On the other hand, most new auto up shift when you dont want them too...

i dont think there is a real answer.
#66982 - in reply to #66974
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Posted 3/15/2007 12:15 PM
4x4abc



Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
5000
RE: driving off road... manual or auto

Edward,

"off-road" has a bandwidth from leaving pavement to climbing vertical walls of ice. So, which one did you have in mind?

For most off-road applications automatic is a good choice. Some of the very technical, extremely slow speed, rock crawling stuff is better managed with a manual. However, there is a new generation of automatics emerging that performs better in that field then automatics before (manufacturers don't just grab an automatic off the shelf any more - they design its characteristics and the software to do what's needed when off-road. Manual is still better in the slow stuff - but the automatics are catching on.

I hear the the argument coming "But in rock crawling competitions everyone is using automatic." Well, its called rock crawling, but those competitions are anything but. They have more of an entertainment value than showing sophisticated technical menauvers. For the kind of abuse during those events an automatic is best.
#66992 - in reply to #66974
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Posted 3/15/2007 3:58 PM
hipine



Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
5000
RE: driving off road... manual or auto

I'd start off by saying that an automatic is going to have a lot of the same advantages and disadvantages off road that it has on road.  The auto box is a more complex piece of kit with more potential failure modes, but ultimately very reliable and it provides conveniences.  The manual is more robust and not as much effected by heat, low speed/high load driving, etc, but it's not so convenient to use.

In the type of off roading most people will do the place they'll notice a differnece is on hills.  The torque converter on the auto box gives you a nice de-facto gearing reduction of about 1.5:1 in addition to the gears in the drive line, giving you more power for climbing hills.  On the "down side" (literally) that same effect works in reverse when going down hill, so you don't get as much engine braking effect with the auto box as you do with a manual.  There are of course ways to compensate with the wheel brakes, electronics and things in the transmission or other parts of the drive line, etc.

For the most part I think that any given person's preferences on-road are going to extend to off road.  And that's what we're really talking about here is personal preference.  As Harald aluded to, talking about what some particular kind of competition vehicle uses is of little value to the average joe.  Competition vehicles are designed to meet a very specific set of needs, usually a much narrower set than those of a recreational or part time off road vehicle, so the best solution for one doesn't always trnslate to the best solution for the other.

Whenever someone asks me this kind of question, I usually reply with, "What do you prefer on road?" If you're taking general recreational off road driving as practiced by about the 90th percentile of people using SUVs off road, then they're best off using what they're most comfortable with already.  The particulars of learning to drive well off road will take over and be slightly differnt for each choice, but not horribly significantly so, in my opinion.

-Dave G.

#67032 - in reply to #66974
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Posted 3/15/2007 4:07 PM
DUTCH
Administrator Doppelgänger




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: US, GA, Atlanta
Vehicle(s): 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 TDI,2018 Sprinter
Posts: 9963
5000
RE: driving off road... manual or auto

hipine - 3/15/2007 3:58 PM

I'd start off by saying that an automatic is going to have a lot of the same advantages and disadvantages off road that it has on road. The auto box is a more complex piece of kit with more potential failure modes, but ultimately very reliable and it provides conveniences.

-Dave G.



When Ed Mc Cabe was getting ready to order his Paris-Dakar G, it was strongly recommended to him that he go with an auto-box for reliability reasons. If I remember correctly, it was felt by the M-B engineers that an auto-box would have better longevity in that situation than clutches, shift linkages, etc.
#67035 - in reply to #67032
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Posted 3/15/2007 4:24 PM
hipine



Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
5000
RE: driving off road... manual or auto

DUTCH - 3/15/2007 2:07 PM  When Ed Mc Cabe was getting ready to order his Paris-Dakar G, it was strongly recommended to him that he go with an auto-box for reliability reasons. If I remember correctly, it was felt by the M-B engineers that an auto-box would have better longevity in that situation than clutches, shift linkages, etc.

Yep, and I'd agree with them 100%, "...in that situation...." just as I'd probably make the same choice that Kerr's baja truck buildig friends did for their situation.  What I was getting at in my post is that those competitive "situations" can't be taken at face value to represent the recreational user's situation, and that things like robustness and other technical aspects are so close to a wash between the two, that it comes down to a matter of personal preference for all practical purposes.

A related point is probably worth stating too though.  It's without a doubt "easier" to drive an automatic off road without damaging drive line components than it is to drive a manual off road without damaging drive line components (just as it is on road).  Lots of pepole drive manual trans vehicles on road...badly...and tear things up.  Not particularly related to whether one mechanical component is "better" suited to the purpose of moving the vehicle around, but more to whether or not the individual cares to become proficient with the tool. 

It's along these lines that the "tread lightly" guy in me says, get the auto box because more people can use it mindlessly without tearing up the terrain, even though the well-used manual can be argued to ultimately be easier on the ground.  Again, not related to whether one is better suited to the task, but rather which is less likely to be minsused in the hands of a casual user.

Fun stuff!

-Dave G.

#67039 - in reply to #67035
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Posted 3/15/2007 4:29 PM
4x4abc



Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
5000
RE: driving off road... manual or auto

yeah, the torque converter.
On most MB transmissions it has a "gear ratio" of about 1.85:1 - combine that with the exceptionally low first gear of the W4A018 (4.007:1), transfer case (2.14:1) and axles (4.888:1) and you'll get a crawl ratio of 77.54:1! A better value than even the newest Jeep Rubicon. http://www.4x4abc.com/G-Class/transmissions/getriebe.html

Most other auto makers have a higher ratio for their automatics (Chrysler 2.4:1). That gives them better climbing ability and a quicker start at the traffic light - but the price is that they create more heat. More heat = earlier death.

Still, for the very technical stuff I would prefer a military box and 6.17 axles = 81.3:1
By the way, I run 80:1 on all my vehicles during Rubicon training. http://4x4abc.com/4x4training/expert-training.html

As Dave stated, one of the draw backs of an automatic is, that it is painfully fast going downhill. But that is only true for older automatics. As long as I don't touch the throttle on my G500 it crawls downhill like a low geared manual transmission - the computer makes it possible.

Main thing I don't like about any automatic is that you have to drive it with both feet when the terrain gets very technical. That is very difficult even after years of training and it generates extra heat. Since you are already driving slow and have insufficient cooling the extra heat will definitely shorten the life of you automatic. http://www.4x4abc.com/jeep101/footed.html

I had a 280GE with auto once and used it for extreme 4x4 training. After the auto that came with the truck died, I got a brand new one curtesy of MB Stuttgart. It lasted exactly 2 years under these conditions. A manual would have been ready for its second annual oil change and the clutch would have been like new since you start without the clutch, "in-gear", when things get rough.

But then there is expedition style off-roading. Bad roads, soft sand, the occasional rock, many miles of asphalt in between. For that an automatic is unbeatable.

Edited by 4x4abc 3/15/2007 4:31 PM
#67040 - in reply to #67032
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Posted 3/16/2007 7:45 AM
G wizz
Elite Veteran




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Uk
Vehicle(s): Dont own a G anymore, Too expensive!!!!
Posts: 686
500
Re: driving off road... manual or auto

auto for me every time.
#67115 - in reply to #66974
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