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hipine
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
| Mocking up the 5-speed
With the number of folks who've had vibration issues after fitting the long iron box 5 speed transmissions, I thought I'd make good use of the spare chassis and motor I have to mock everything up and see what if any modifications to things like the tranny cross member might be in order to get the trans and t-case flanges parallel. Pictures follow as I'm not sure how to intersperse them with the text. 1- One last use for this parts car stuff. Now that the snow drift has released it, I'm sure Cheryl will want it gone soon. Anybody need a chassis or 617 long block w. pan? 2- I fit the transfer case brace to the 'case and a vise grip on one of the shifter arms to let me fine tune it's position controlling the "pitch" of the t-case flange. Surprisingly, with the stock trans cross member and trans mount, the pitch was within 1/4 degree and easily adjustable to make it perfect. 3- Almost as an afterthought I decided to check the "yaw" alignment of the two flanges as well and in order to get everything really spot on I decided to use a dial indicator and some percision parallels to establish a "plane" for each flange that was about 10" in diameter. I thought if I could get them to indicate within .005" or so all the way across a 10" circle, I'd be in good shape. 4- Surprise surprise. By the time I got the "yaw" right and the indicator showing the two flanges good and parallel all over, the trans mount was missing it's holes in the cross member by a good inch. This might be where the problems are coming from. I never expected this to come out so far off, but the indicator doesn't lie. 5- And just to make a point when people say things like, "We got the flanges lined up really well, but still have vibrations" This picture is meant to show that when the thing that's important for eliminating vibrations (parallelism of the flanges) is worked out, the flanges are rarely "lined up" and don't need to be. That's what the U joints are for. -Dave G.
 (mock-up.jpg)
 (brace.jpg)
 (indicator.jpg)
 (rear-mount.jpg)
 (not-aligned.jpg)
Attachments
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 mock-up.jpg (83KB - 2 downloads)
brace.jpg (81KB - 2 downloads)
indicator.jpg (83KB - 2 downloads)
rear-mount.jpg (44KB - 2 downloads)
not-aligned.jpg (70KB - 2 downloads)
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W5YK
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: May 2006
Location: San Diego
Vehicle(s): 2002 G500, Unimog U2450,
Posts: 543
| RE: Mocking up the 5-speed
Isn't there a theory that the worst position is when they are in line? There isn't enough force on the U-joint bearings to turn them, so everything dries up. A small angle keeps them moving. That's my excuse anyway. |
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dai
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
| Re: Mocking up the 5-speed
I fought with this with my truck for quite a while. Less fun when you are lying under it looking up at the problem. Do you think that C/V's would solve the problem better than using U-joints? Is that why the 463 series has the C/V shaft there? Your shaft length looks like it may wind up even shorter than the stock 5 speed short shaft in mine. The shorter the shaft the more critical the alignment of the parallel surfaces needs to be. What a great thing to have a spare chassis to work out the problem on, Dave.
-Dai |
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hipine
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
| Re: Mocking up the 5-speed
CVs don't need parallel flanges, that's for sure. The center drive shaft I have is like 10.25" long - thus mwhy I'm trying to make that one really right. I haven't checked the relations of the rear output flange and the rear axle on my truck yet, but being LWB, that one's fairly forgiving - though it will become slightly less so when I get the damper and slightly shorter rear shaft from the diesels in there. Not sure if that's in the cards for this project, or the next one. And yeah, this is the only good thing about having a derelict chassis lying around the yard. I really do want to get rid of it pretty soon though, if I can. -Dave G. |
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sjtymko
G-Class Photo Host
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Canada, AB, Sherwood Park (Edmonton)
Vehicle(s): 2002 G500, 2009 B200
Posts: 511
| RE: Mocking up the 5-speed
Dai, When I do my switch to a 5-speed, I was planning to explore the idea of using CVs from the 463. I think it might be the best idea for the short shaft. Those MB engineers really do know something. Steve |
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dai
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
| Re: Mocking up the 5-speed
The stock 5 speed short center shaft is 325mm or around 12.75" flange to flange installed.
Try Sean or Steve at Eurotruck. They might be able to get the shorty made with C/V ends by the same company that makes the G shaft. GKN? This seemed to be a possibility a few months ago anyway. I want to try that approach for my ultra short rear driveshaft in the future. -OR-
I've heard that some Audi Quatro models use the same driveshaft flanges as the G and they are all C/V ends. It may be possible to get one of these from a dismantler and modify the center to fit the G short prop shaft. I have not had time to try to hunt down one for this approach but if it worked it might be a low cost but correct fix. Anybody tried one of those? A quest for the smoothest driveline in a 460.
-Dai |
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sjtymko
G-Class Photo Host
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Canada, AB, Sherwood Park (Edmonton)
Vehicle(s): 2002 G500, 2009 B200
Posts: 511
| Re: Mocking up the 5-speed
I have the c-clipped u-joints so replacement is easy. However, also in a quest for a smooth G I was thinking of cv jointed rear, and maybe front, drive shafts as well. The problem is that I am afraid that the boot is very vulnerable on the diff end. All it would take is to clip a rock, stump, brance, etc and it could tear leaving the joint exposed to the elements. My G is probably getting a bit more lift soon and I am afraid it will cause more vibs and I want to avoid this. That super short rear shaft is not fun to work with that is for sure. Does anyone know what would have more strength: a cv joint or a u-joint at the angles that shaft will be at? Thinking out-loud here, I could build a bit of a "skidplate" type thingy arounf the cv joint at the axel end to offer it some protection from a bump. What do you think?Steve |
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sjtymko
G-Class Photo Host
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Canada, AB, Sherwood Park (Edmonton)
Vehicle(s): 2002 G500, 2009 B200
Posts: 511
| RE: Mocking up the 5-speed
Dave, Good on ya. Learn all you can and share it with me. I'll be sponging off you ASAP. The weather is warming up!! Can you sense the excitement in my voice?Take care,Steve |
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dai
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
| Re: Mocking up the 5-speed
Steve, we are thinking along the same lines. I am not worried about damaging the joints. I want smoothness down the road and do not want to bash my truck on things. I am off the road a lot with my G but have no desire to smash the drivelines into boulders or concrete. I would have to drag the frame into problems to hurt it bad. It would be easy to make a guard to protect a C/V's if cutting the boots is a worry. I have spent too much time waiting to find my truck to go out and damage it like a tourist.
-Dai |
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sjtymko
G-Class Photo Host
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Canada, AB, Sherwood Park (Edmonton)
Vehicle(s): 2002 G500, 2009 B200
Posts: 511
| RE: Mocking up the 5-speed
Don't get me wrong Dai, I have no intention to bash up my G either. It is more a case of "what if". I have sunk in mud and snow to the axels on occasion. If there was to be root or something there, it could tear something and this would make me sad. Unlikely, but possible. The super-smooth of it would be really nice though:) I have found what seems to be a good drive-line shop here that could, if I can source the proper joints, build the rest of the shaft pretty easily. I doubt it is much to fashion a shaft that could connect the joints and have as good as stock strength. I need to poke around more. Steve |
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hipine
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
| Hey Dai, Thanks Again!
I finally found time to go look up the old post where I asked for manuals for the 711.110/6/7 gearbox line and your recommendation of Schif. I called them late yesterday and left a VM. I'd actually forgotten about following up, but Barry called me this AM and after a little back and forth, found the trans section of the manuals for the 307 van and the G1/18-5/6.15 trans therein! I expect to see a copy by priority mail later this week! He also reminded me that 461 stuff (where 711.116 and .117 were used) should be on the WIS. I hadn't even thought to check there. Guess I'd better get my copy of that one working.... Anyhoo..... Refreshing to deal with such a professional. Thanks for the contact! -Dave G. |
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dai
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
| Re: Mocking up the 5-speed
No problem, Dave. Barry Schiff has been doing this a while and I have purchaced a few microfiche Benz manuals for the G as well as for other models from him. As you say excellent service. Glad he had what you needed. I have one of those Vans. We bought it for Lumos but we are going to sell it because we are not using it in the way we thought we would. It came with a number of spare parts. Let me know if you need something bizarre related to your swap. It just might be in a box in the barn!
-Dai |
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