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macjack
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
| lengthening panhard rod/transverse link with lift
G-wagoners,
I have the ORC springs, which give a few inches of lift and I am noticing the dreaded pull of the the axles to the side (front to the left and rear to the right). I understand that the solution is to lengthen the panhard rods (transverse links). What is the best way to do this? I notice in the front there is a relatively straight section on the left side. I was thinking of cutting it there, welding in some threads on both sides and then putting in a sleeve to connect the two ends with some bolt clamps to cinch it all in place. What have others done? Is it necessary to make it adjustable?
thanks in advance,
-macjack |
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KERR
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
| Re: lengthening panhard rod/transverse link with lift
i have no clue, mine went in easy and i have had no problems at all. |
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macjack
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
| RE: lengthening panhard rod/transverse link with lift
The springs have been in, and driving ok (except for the twitchy steering as a result of the loss of caster), but I notice that the rear of the right front tire rubs on the trailing arm when turning hard right. I think that the panhard rod had also been a bit bent, which further accentuates the issue. |
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Loki Laufeyjarson
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: 66°N, 19°W
Vehicle(s):
| RE: lengthening panhard rod/transverse link with lift
macjack - 3/23/2007 5:24 PM
G-wagoners,
I have the ORC springs, which give a few inches of lift and I am noticing the dreaded pull of the the axles to the side (front to the left and rear to the right). I understand that the solution is to lengthen the panhard rods (transverse links). What is the best way to do this? I notice in the front there is a relatively straight section on the left side. I was thinking of cutting it there, welding in some threads on both sides and then putting in a sleeve to connect the two ends with some bolt clamps to cinch it all in place. What have others done? Is it necessary to make it adjustable?
thanks in advance,
-macjack
You dont want any weak link in the panhard rod and welding there is a critical issue and at least should be left to professionals.
Another thing is that you must lengthen the drag link equally and make sure that steering is straight.
Third issue is that you have messed up the caster angle of the steering and increased the tilt of the radius arms.
The only professional method of correcting this new setup is to lower frame side of the radius arms, lower frame side of panhard rod and mount a dropped pitman arm.
There is no free lunch if you want to maintain driveability....
Loki |
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macjack
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
| RE: lengthening panhard rod/transverse link with lift
When I say "I", I mean bringing it to a professional welder. I also understand that the radius arms issue witht the caster can be adressed with offset bushings. I have about 2 inches of lift, so it is not so extreme. The draglink angle is not so great as the panhard, and the draglink has adjustability.
I think that there is no free lunch anywhere on the G!
-macjack |
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hipine
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
| Loki's right
IMO, it's best to lower the chassis mount of the panhard bar by the ammount you've increased the static ride height. -Dave G. |
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dai
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
| Re: lengthening panhard rod/transverse link with lift
Yes, well, dropping the pivot point at the frame is not for the faint of heart. It requires cutting off the stock pivot and reworking it into a dropped pivot or using the Canadian military G brackets and welding that to the frame rails.- A permanent modification-. Q was successful using the Old Man Emu bushings designed for the 80 series FJ and adapter bushings to get to the control arm size. He had much more severe lift then we are discussing here. I am going to try the offset idea first because it is easy to return the truck to the stock bushings. Call me whimpy but I am just not ready to radically change my unmolested G. The springs can be changed back or a different selection can be made to reduce the lift. My goal was to get better load capability and I also got lift. What a pain. There, I feel better now. I will probably drop the pivots in the future but I want to try the less permanent solution first.
-Dai |
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roughneck
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: UK, Germany & USA
Vehicle(s): 270 cdi.300 GD 300 GE.lwb 300 GE.swb. Disco 2
Posts: 4398
| RE: lengthening panhard rod/transverse link with lift
Macjac: I think your proposed mod is dangerous, It would also help if we knew what model G we are talking about, I have lifted many Gs to 3" above norm, never a problem, I have seen where folks doing this have removed the panhard and and other links to fit the increased lift springs and then reassembled without replacing bushes, then you can get floppy sloppy suspension action, is this what yoiu did ?
As for the tyre rubbing, are your tyres over size? fit spacers. did you adjust the stop bolt on the front hub? There are probably many things causing your problem, post a pic so we can see your complete set up.
Edited by roughneck 3/24/2007 6:15 AM
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Brent
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: SW Colorado USA
Vehicle(s): '13 Wolfsburg GTI
Posts: 1754
| RE: lengthening panhard rod/transverse link with lift
You have now heard the two options, lengthen the bar or drop the bracket. Jeep guys use drop brackets all the time. I know of one Jeep kit that uses a drop bracket in the rear but an adjustable replacement arm in front. It was also the only kit I found that addressed caster without all new suspension arms. The claim was that because of the steering on the front axle, an adjustable arm was the better solution than a simple drop bracket.
Using that as an example I intend to use adjustable arms front and rear. I will also use a 4x4 shop that has lots of experience making and using adjustable arms. There is no doubt in my mind they can be built plenty strong.
I never felt the need for any of that on my G320 with the ORC springs. Adjust the steering stops slightly as mentioned to fix the rub up front and let r rip. |
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W5YK
Extreme Veteran
Date registered: May 2006
Location: San Diego
Vehicle(s): 2002 G500, Unimog U2450,
Posts: 543
| RE: lengthening panhard rod/transverse link with lift
That is odd. I put on the ORC springs, and didn't change anything else. That was 60k miles ago, and I haven't had any problems at all. No tire rub, no driveline problems, steering problems, nothing. Drives like new at 90k miles.
The lift is only 40mm, in fact slightly less, so it's not very significant.
What wheels and tires do you have? |
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macjack
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
| RE: lengthening panhard rod/transverse link with lift
So this is a 1908 300gd swb which I have purchased in the last 6 months. the PO had installed 18 inch 2002 g500 rims and the ORC springs in the rear, as he carried lots of heavy tools. I noticed that the right front spring was extra saggy, and the whole arientation of the truck was pretty off without the weight in the back. I decided to match the front springs to the rear with the ORC. I could probably get away without dealing with the panhard rods, but there is a bit of rubbing at the top of the spring mount in the left rear, and the previously mentioned rubbing in the front. The offset in the front was really noticable with the left tire sticking out from the body (no fender flares) by about an inch and a half, and the right front tire obviously closer to the radius arm. I also replaced the tires with nitto terra grapplers that are about 32x10. just basic geometry tells me that the panhard rod is going to pull it to the side since the mount is raised now. also the springs are clearly not coming straight down from the housings with the axle in its current place, and the whole travel seems like it would naturally be upset.
I have heard that diesel engines are lighter (even with the turbo on my 617A  ) and that LWB trucks may not see the same problems as the SWB. I did find a local fabricator yesterday who has done alot of these mods, starting with his own very clean truck from like the 40s that he restored/modified over 12 years. He is aware of the issues with a panhard rod and his idea is that you want the parts to be in as natural position as possible, as in relatively level with the ground, when the truck is at rest. I have no idea what he will charge to drop the mount lower, but I will bring him the truck in a week when I get back from a meditation retreat.
Of course, the much more serious issue is that of caster, as that has obvious effects on steering and driveshaft flange orientation. And the brake apportioning valve. I was thinking of using the OME FJ80 offset bushings, but if he can drop the radius arm mounts with confidence, I would consider it. I am not a rock crawling type, and would prefer to be able to drive in deep snow, so having something hanging down from the frame a couple of inches is not too big a deal to me.
I really appreciate the various pieces of wisdom that folks are sharing on this. What did people do before forums like these?
-macjack |
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Loki Laufeyjarson
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: 66°N, 19°W
Vehicle(s):
| RE: lengthening panhard rod/transverse link with lift
macjack - 3/24/2007 2:51 PM
... but there is a bit of rubbing at the top of the spring mount in the left rear, and the previously mentioned rubbing in the front.
I run 35"X12,5" tires, no lift and the only rubbing is where the tires rub the front radius arms at full turn.
You can easily avoid your tire/spring rubbing by using stock springs. The rubbing is simply caused by unprofessional lift and/or running the tires on to narrov rim.
The other method is to chase the problem that is caused by the stiffer springs and adjust a whole lot of other things.
I have no idea what he will charge to drop the mount lower, but I will bring him the truck in a week when I get back from a meditation retreat.
It is negative to have the panhardrod and draglink tilting. But it is more importand to have those rods paralell than having one horizontal and the other tilting. Unparalell rods is simply asking for bumpsteering.
To have the steering box in ideal poition for straight driving you must lengten the dragling equally to the lengtening of the panhard rod.
...if he can drop the radius arm mounts with confidence, I would consider it. I am not a rock crawling type, and would prefer to be able to drive in deep snow, so having something hanging down from the frame a couple of inches is not too big a deal to me.
Good welders can easily drop the radius arm mounts and fabricate new. That is the best method to compensate for taller springs.
Lower arm mounts make no difference in the snow as the housings are allways lower thean the arms mounts and do the job of plowing the snow.
The simplest method to prevent this rubbing and to straighten up wrong suspension/steering geometry is to mount the right length/stiffness of springs.......
You must ask your self what is gained and what is lost by using those taller/stiffer springs and are you ready to chase the new geometry with corrections or simply live with the consiquences.
In my opinion the stock suspension setup is good and clearance should be gained by bigger tires.
Loki
Edited by Loki Laufeyjarson 3/24/2007 2:09 PM
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Steve D
Veteran
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Denver, CO
Vehicle(s): 1984 280GE cabrio; 2011 Ford Expedition
Posts: 112
| RE: lengthening panhard rod/transverse link with lift
Well I will add my 2 cents worth. I am talking about my personal vehicle. I would not even thick about cutting something off my frame and moving it if there are other solutions. On the radius and trailing arms, lowering them is theoretically correct, but in the places I off road my truck I do not want a lowered mount taking away my ground clearance or giving me something to hang up on.
On the panard rod I see no problem with lengthening to rod by cutting off the frame end bushing, threading the rod and installing and adjustable "johnny joint" or spherical rod end. This will make the panard rod adjustable by an inch or more. The drag link is already adjustable Many suspension companies use this method on a 2 inch lift. On a larger lift more drastic measures would need to be needed.
Edited by Steve D 3/24/2007 6:39 PM
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bwillie
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
| RE: lengthening panhard rod/transverse link with lift
I have tried both ways that have been discussed to align the wheels under the truck. I used a 4"x4"x1/4" square tube that fit over the stock mount so the rod could be moved down. I bolted the bracket and welded it (similar to the first two links exept boxed steel). The second way was to cut off the tube end that mounts to the frame and weld in either a heim end or a bushing (this is the way that I preffered).
As for the misalignment bushing to correct caster, I can say from experience you will eat the bushing up really fast!
http://www.sonoransteel.com/panhard_002.jpg
http://www.sonoransteel.com/thumb_panhard_001.jpg
http://www.sonoransteel.com/Thumb_End_Adjustable_Trac_Bar.jpg |
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bwillie
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
| RE: lengthening panhard rod/transverse link with lift
I have tried both ways that have been discussed to align the wheels under the truck. I used a 4"x4"x1/4" square tube that fit over the stock mount so the rod could be moved down. I bolted the bracket and welded it (similar to the first two links exept boxed steel). The second way was to cut off the tube end that mounts to the frame and weld in either a heim end or a bushing (this is the way that I preffered).
As for the misalignment bushing to correct caster, I can say from experience you will eat the bushing up really fast!
http://www.sonoransteel.com/panhard_002.jpg
http://www.sonoransteel.com/thumb_panhard_001.jpg
http://www.sonoransteel.com/Thumb_End_Adjustable_Trac_Bar.jpg |
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bwillie
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
| RE: lengthening panhard rod/transverse link with lift
Sorry for all the posts, here are the pictures.
Edited by bwillie 3/26/2007 8:53 AM
 (Thumb_End_Adjustable_Trac_Bar.jpg)
 (panhard_001.jpg)
 (thumb_panhard_002.jpg)
Attachments
----------------
 Thumb_End_Adjustable_Trac_Bar.jpg (22KB - 11 downloads)
panhard_001.jpg (121KB - 7 downloads)
thumb_panhard_002.jpg (29KB - 13 downloads)
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ThorThorThor
Member
Date registered: Feb 2007
Location: Highlands Ranch (Denver Metro), Colorado
Vehicle(s): 1992 Range Rover size L, 1995 Range Rover size M
Posts: 15
| Re: lengthening panhard rod/transverse link with lift
Thank You bwillie! From good ol' Colorado no less!
This is the type of G I've been waiting to see! Your avatar shows it all!
I'd love to get some more details of your build and some off road shots. If it's not asking too much.
If you would send me a few shots, I'll PM you my e-mail address.
Thanks!
I'd love to hit a trail with you someday!
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macjack
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
| specs on the joint/bushing
looks like I will lengthen the rods and deal with the caster separately.
bwillie or anyone else who's made the adjustable rods: what are the specs on the heim joints or bushings? I notice that the 2 inch johnnie joint has a 7/16th inch bolt and I believe taht the gwagen transverse bolt at the frame is 9/16 and the housing is 2 inches wide. parts sources?
thanks in advance.
-macjack |
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