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extra cooling fans
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Posted 4/4/2007 7:09 PM
shakir
Extreme Veteran




Date registered: Dec 2006
Location: London , UK
Vehicle(s): 1986 280 GEL manual, lpg.1991 300GEL AUTO
Posts: 404
300
extra cooling fans

Some of you will remember my cooling related problems under extreme load, specially during my trip to-and from Cyprus in 2005. To summarise it, I had replaced the belt driven fan with a 16" Pacet thinline fan for economy and quieter operation. (air flow 2904 cubic meters/hour)
I did benefit from less noise, more power and more economy from the engine, but under really extreme situations, which involved climbing up mountain roads under heavy load/boat on a trailer etc. the fan just couldnot cope. Other wise load or no load it is working fine. Now to adress the problem I have decided to use a water wetter when I am travelling, but I am not sure about the outcome yet so I have decided to install extra Pacets from outside of the radiator as extra cooling aids.

1.I removed the already installed 11" ordinary aircon fan and replaced it with a 11" Pacet profan blower fan (airflow 2110 cubicmetres/hour)

2. I installed a 12" Pacet High profile profan blower ( airflow 4009 cubicmetres /hour).It was a tight fit and involved some panel cutting/modifying

Both of the above fans can be switched on manually from a switch on the dash when necessary as an extra cooling power. Also the 11" comes on automatically with the aircon.
I think I have at least doubled my cooling capacity (I have a recon radiator on as well), which should really solve my overheating problems
The final result of the installation looks good. And trials so far indicates no power loss from the engine even with all 3 fans working together. But as i said I should only be firing the extra fans for extreme situation which doesnot happen too often.
Also, another advantage is I am able to cool the oil cooler as well with the extra fans and if Global Warming carries on like this, might even use the 12"PAcet for efficient airconditioning operation. And to do my bit against Global Warming I am using LPG as fuel.
Anyone who wants to do this conversion can also use Pacet 16" thinline profan (airflow 3999cubicmetres/hour) . which is more powerfull than the one I am using. Unfortunately I didnot know it back in 2005.

Can anyone tell me what is the airflow rating of the standart belt driven fans?





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#69078
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Posted 4/4/2007 7:32 PM
4x4abc



Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
5000
RE: extra cooling fans

2 things come to mind
#1 some 280 tend to run very hot (I had one f those). Had numerous dicussions with MB engineers about it. Bottom line "If the needle is not in the red (meaning just about to enter) - you are fine. Don't worry!"

#2 a radiator fan combo without a proper shrout is absolutely worthless. Even the position of the fan halfway in and halfway out of the shrout is highly scientific and not something you want to mess with.

 

I see custom built cooling systems all summer long on the Rubicon. They all overheat. Except the few that know how to integrate a custom shrout (and I have ssen only 3 in 20 years). Its not the "6 core" radiator that makes the difference - its the piece of tin that directs the airflow. 

#69083 - in reply to #69078
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Posted 4/4/2007 11:17 PM
fourbyfourclub
Extreme Veteran




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: New Jersey, USA
Vehicle(s): 300G
Posts: 302
300
RE: extra cooling fans

Any belt driven fan more effective that electric one.
New fan clutch, bigger fan with proper size and aligned SHROUD (Hi Harold!) more important for your cooling system that additional electric fan.
#69099 - in reply to #69078
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Posted 4/5/2007 12:19 AM
4x4abc



Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
5000
RE: extra cooling fans

this from a race car site:

Lisa Chissus of Flex-a-lite says testing has shown that when using an electric fan, it is always better to pull the air through the radiator with the fan mounted behind the unit than to push the air through with the fan mounted in front. This is because once the car is up to speed, the greatest percentage of air flowing to the radiator will come from the car's movement. Putting a pusher fan in front of the radiator blocks the incoming air from getting where it needs to go--through the radiator core. Chissus recommends always using an electric fan with a built-in shroud, as this greatly increases the fan's effectiveness at pulling air through the radiator.

original here: http://www.stockcarracing.com/techarticles/general/scrp_0509_effici...
#69102 - in reply to #69099
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Posted 4/5/2007 2:58 AM
79percent
Extreme Veteran




Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Remscheid / Germany
Vehicle(s): 300 GE
Posts: 537
500
RE: extra cooling fans

4x4abc - 4/5/2007 6:19 AM this from a race car site: Lisa Chissus of Flex-a-lite says testing has shown that when using an electric fan, it is always better to pull the air through the radiator with the fan mounted behind the unit than to push the air through with the fan mounted in front. This is because once the car is up to speed, the greatest percentage of air flowing to the radiator will come from the car's movement. Putting a pusher fan in front of the radiator blocks the incoming air from getting where it needs to go--through the radiator core. Chissus recommends always using an electric fan with a built-in shroud, as this greatly increases the fan's effectiveness at pulling air through the radiator. original here: http://www.stockcarracing.com/techarticles/general/scrp_0509_effici...

 

 

We are in the middle of an Project, where we try to replace the mechanical driven radiator fan with an electric one. We figured out that the electric Fan of a W211 can fit from the inside of the radiator. The W211 Fan is a PWM driven one - so it neede some electronic to let it run a different speeds at different temperatures. If the electronic fails, it will run full speed.

It comes with a shroud, that has been developed for the W211. It is cheap on German ebay, since the fan needs to be upgraded in those models which get a trailer tow bar.

 

We plan to generate a small piece of electronic, that measures the temperature at the engine and generates a PWM signal to the fan. In addition, this electronic can get a full speed signal and a inhibit signal when driving through deep water. As a third option, an extended cooling time after ingnition off can be used.


Hopefully we get everything ready and set up end of summer. Sure you'll find a "how to install" on my site.

 

RGDS

Klaus

 

 

#69108 - in reply to #69102
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Posted 4/5/2007 5:19 AM
shakir
Extreme Veteran




Date registered: Dec 2006
Location: London , UK
Vehicle(s): 1986 280 GEL manual, lpg.1991 300GEL AUTO
Posts: 404
300
RE: extra cooling fans

Eletric fan is more economical than the mechanical fan.Also Car has more power and less noise. On motorway journeys ,city driving etc my car has no issues with cooling at all.Only the 16" puling fan does the job perfectly.
Only when it comes to climbing up very steep hills with a trailer and a boat or when the car is reall heavily loaded with goods and passengers (again climbing) it becomes an issue (ambient temp around 34 degrees CELSIUS). 16" is the max. diameter that is available in UK. By using the external blowers I tried to cover the areas that are not covered by the 16" fan. And the external blowers blocking the air through the radiators is not an issue here because I need them at very low speeds strugling up a hill so thay actually help the air flow. And external blowers double up as airconditioning fans as well. So far good.
Does anyone know the cubic meter/hour rating of the original pulley fan??

Also driving the car constantly in the first/second gear doesnot help the situation

Edited by shakir 4/5/2007 5:42 AM
#69115 - in reply to #69078
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Posted 4/5/2007 11:04 AM
hipine



Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
5000
RE: extra cooling fans

I've never seen the rating of the factory fan.  So I think the bottom line has to be that if it performs better for you in your application, go for it.

Since you're taking all this effort to do the electric fans, you really should put them on proper metal mounting brackets.  Those little pull-tab thingies that go through the radiator are very convenient, but radiator fins are designed to serve one single very important function - heat transfer.  Supporting the load of a chunk of plastic and metal is a LONG way from their design intent and as such, they will fail prematurely, or worse, bend and allow the fan's frame to vibrate against the tubes - also not designed to support anything but their own weight - leading to a leak.  The fans need to be mounted solidly with a minimal, but always present, gap to the radiator parts.

The good electric fans I've seen also have separate flow ratings for a given daimeter depending on whether they're "puller" or "pusher" fans, and should have the blades designed differently depending on whether they'll pull or push (should only turn one direction, not just reverse polarity).  I'm sure you've considered this in your application, this is more to remind folks who may find this thread later in a search.

I used an electric fan on my old 109" LR where the normally aspirated diesel had about 50 hp and evey pony was precious.  But even on that one, I ended up going back to the engine driven fan for bullet proof reliability.  And that one didn't even have a fan clutch OR flex blades, just a "prop" being spun by the motor all the time.

Hope this gets you over your cooling issues.  I was lucky, I never had any problems with my M110 in the LWB even in high heat, high load situations.  Have you checked your oil temp?  If the thermostatic element has failed, it might not be cooling the oil properly.  I was surprised at how low an oil temp my 617A maintains.  It's always between 140 and 180F.  I don't remember the specs for the thermostatic controller in the M110, but could look it up if you need it.

The electric fans do provide one very important benefit in those low speed, high load situations.  They allow you to change down, let off the gas and drive with lower engine RPMs, while still getting maximum cooling from the fan.  So when you go down to 2nd or 1st gear, you can run the engine slower (like 3500 rpm) for reduced thermal load, but still be forcing max air through the rad with the electric fans.  Shifting downa gear doesn't do any good for bringing temps down if you keep the motor spinning at 5 grand in the lower gear.

Good luck!

-Dave G.

#69137 - in reply to #69115
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Posted 4/5/2007 3:49 PM
shakir
Extreme Veteran




Date registered: Dec 2006
Location: London , UK
Vehicle(s): 1986 280 GEL manual, lpg.1991 300GEL AUTO
Posts: 404
300
Re: extra cooling fans

hi dave, as you said I am using dedicated blowers and a puller. I would not mind some more info regarding the way the oil cooler operates , thermostat etc. It is good to check them up as well just in case.
regrds
#69166 - in reply to #69078
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Posted 4/5/2007 4:23 PM
hipine



Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
5000
Re: extra cooling fans

I'll see what I can dig up.  You might search the forums here and at BWF for refrence to oil temperatures too.

I was actually surprised that the 617A oil temp is kept below a temp that would boil water away, but I guess that the oil temp is a lot higher than 180 F in other parts of the engine, like when it gets sprayed onto the piston bottoms, so any water is probably vaporized at that point, even though the oil circulating to the cooler is lower temp.

-Dave G.

#69172 - in reply to #69166
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Posted 4/5/2007 10:26 PM
hipine



Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: US, CO, Bailey
Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A
5000
Oil temp thermostat

Per the M110 workshop manual, thermostat opening should commence @ 95 C (+/- 4) and should be fully open by 110 C (+/- 4). They say to test it by starting with a cold engine, inserting a temp measuing probe through the dipstick tube into the oil in the pan, and running the engine at high speed, holding hand on top tank of oil cooler.  One should feel the oil cooler tank warm up suddenly when oil temp rises above 95 C. (indicating thermostat has opened at 95)  Gradual warming of cooler indicates thermostat stuck open.  Cool-to-touch oil cooler at temps above 100C indicates thermostat failed closed.

Good luck!

-Dave G.

#69213 - in reply to #69166
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Posted 4/6/2007 7:46 AM
shakir
Extreme Veteran




Date registered: Dec 2006
Location: London , UK
Vehicle(s): 1986 280 GEL manual, lpg.1991 300GEL AUTO
Posts: 404
300
Re: extra cooling fans

I need to check this thanks for the tip Dave.
#69241 - in reply to #69078
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