|
Linda in Santa Cruz
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
| Questions re. Safety Stability Factor and G-class
As the owner of a [new to me] '05 G500, I've been trying to find out more about G-class safety in order to evaluate concerns raised by my friends re SUVs in general.I feel very safe in my G, given the weight, side airbags, etc....but have been wondering how the G will compare with other SUVs and trucks that are out there, and looking for actual data. After finding no specific ratings on the internet, I wrote to MB-USA Customer Service, and recently received the following:
"...We recognize your desire to obtain the Static Stability Factor (SSF) that
forms part of a vehicle's rollover stability rating under the government's
New Car Assessment Program (NCAP). However, the G-Class has not been
selected for testing under this program.
Because of unavoidable test variations between our own tests and the tests
by the government's laboratories, it is our policy not to publish any
internal results. However, www.safercar.gov has rollover stability
ratings for selected vehicles..." Well, of course G-class test information is NOT available on safercar.gov. Given the experience and occupational training of several (or most?) of our members, does anyone feel free to mention anything about the results of the MB internal testing in Europe or in Alabama? Or can anyone offer a ballpark Static Stability Factor (SSF) that would approximately represent the G500 with factory wheels, one passenger (thus 2 in front) and light load (the way I drive 80% of the time)? ...Or in another configuration?..Or steer me to some info that I've so far missed?
A further question i have is whether G-owners on this list are routinely securing their cargo in the back with a net, with bungee cords or tie-downs using the rings, or using a (tied-down) trunk or closed bin of some kind (if this option, which kind is good)? I am assuming the roller-cover is just to keep cargo out of sight, rather than to keep it from flying.
Post or reply by PM, if you can set me straight about any of this. No, I'm not becoming a nervous wreck thinking about collisions, just trying to be intelligent about life with the G. Thanks, Linda |
|
| |
|
Brent
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: SW Colorado USA
Vehicle(s): '13 Wolfsburg GTI
Posts: 1754
| RE: Questions re. Safety Stability Factor and G-class
First off, I wouldn't put any stock in government tests. It is impossible to simulate accidents, each one is very different. There used to be a short video on the global MB site that demonstrated the G's ability to resist a rollover. The truck is driven at speed down onto a steep embankment, and aggresively turned to run parallel to the slope. The truck is amazingly stable. It may be tall but it has a lower center of gravity than most SUVs.
IMO, you really have to make a bonehead move to roll anything. Out here in CO though, pretty much anytime you leave the road the ditch is big enough to cause a rollover no matter what you drive.
The G is incredibly safe. It is built like a tank and yours also has a stability program to intervene when the truck senses an impending disaster.
If you travel with heavy objects as cargo it is a good idea to strap them down. I will admit that I don't bother, never have, not even when off-roading. It has never been an issue, of course I have never rolled a vehicle either.  |
|
| |
|
KERR
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
| Re: Questions re. Safety Stability Factor and G-class
mb summed it up the best with this tv ad.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7yRnq7uEXk
I searched for ever for crash results before i got mine. I could not find any solid data from anyone... However going by what the insurance companys say a G class is one rating down from the top on a the car that does the most damage to other durning an accident. I think the H1 was only suv that had a worse rating on damage
So going by that, i would think we can tear up some "stuff" with out getting hurt. If i had my old computer i could post a few pictures of crashed G's... Either no one ever has a real accident or no one talkes about them.... One of the members on here tore up a silver one real bad but he walked away.. I think he was from Germany.. hit oil or something in the road and went head on with a rig... |
|
| |
|
Kano383
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
| Re: Questions re. Safety Stability Factor and G-class
The G has a higher CG than a saloon.
If you do something dumb enough, it will roll over, like absolutely any object moving about in this world.
If one does not sense how a car "feels", then no amount of official testing will help in any way.
Best thing would be to take a good off-road course with some experienced professional, then you'd gain much more practical knowledge of the car's possibilities and limitations.
This said, in a number of occasions I had the privilege to be inside a vehicle while it was totaled (although not in a G) and can do some comparisons. Benz are built like tanks... I walked away without a scratch from a W123 resting on its roof, wheels spinning, after glancing off some mean-looking tons of concrete at 100km/h. The windscreen was still intact.
Philip |
|
| |
|
dai
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
| Re: Questions re. Safety Stability Factor and G-class
Linda, try doing a search on the old Benzworld site. There is some information there that would help you. This topic hasn't been discussed much here. Look for Mike's posts (clubgwagen). That should get you connected with some info that will be helpfull to you. Mike was in a G with his wife and were hit head on by a drunk driver. There is more risk of being clobbered by another vehicle than a roll over situation especially where you live. You are driving a bank vault compared to most other machines on the road. My family drives 123 chassis Mercedes and the G. I encourage my friends to drive these vehicles. The G is designed to slide sideways on a severe slope before tipping over. I would think that most of us are rather biased here and believe that these are among the safest vehicles on the road. I do anyway. Nothing else compares to the build quality of the G. It has been designed to protect you.
-Dai |
|
| |
|
4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| Re: Questions re. Safety Stability Factor and G-class
I would strongly advise against off-road courses where "ability" and "limitations" of the 4x4 are demonstrated - they have nothing to do with real life and are usually designed to impress with what a 4x4 could do. Owners walk away from this thinking "Wow, I'll be safe, no matter what!" These courses do not teach what's needed in real life.
Using a 4x4 off pavement for a purpose (exploring, getting to remote camp spots etc) should always be done keeping the vehicle level. Don't do steep hills - they are never part of a road and should be left to the professional who has a need to leave even primitive roads.
There are so many factors involved in vehicle dynamics and driver psychology that can not be taught in an off-road course for the average user. A novice will stay safer by avoiding anything past the point where the stomach says "Oh no!" |
|
| |
|
Kano383
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
| Re: Questions re. Safety Stability Factor and G-class
Harald,
I naively thought that people teaching offroad in your nick of the woods would approach it the way we try to teach things around here... First and foremost, how to be SAFE and what NOT to do, because whatever happens to you there are no recovery trucks, no mechanics, no rescue choppers, no ambulances, no paramedics, no hospitals, absolutely no nothing and if you mess around you're in for serious trouble!!!!!
In the best of cases, you walk thirty or fifty miles back to the first road, and ins the worst case you stay where you are counting your bones while everything fades away very slowly around you, and maybe somebody'll find you ten years later...
Seems I was mistaken.
Philip |
|
| |
|
4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| Re: Questions re. Safety Stability Factor and G-class
Philip,
nope, around here novice "training" is either designed as a sales pitch or to make new owners comfortable or taught by groups that haven't changed their approach in 50 years. Sad but true.
Since I am so busy and can't help enough novices, a book with companion video is in the works to provide real life advice. |
|
| |
|
Kano383
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
| RE: Questions re. Safety Stability Factor and G-class
Like...
"The best way over an obstacle is usually around it."
 |
|
| |
|
460332
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Europe
Vehicle(s):
| RE: Questions re. Safety Stability Factor and G-class
Don'worry about tipping over with the G, before it happens you have to go through different stages.
1. Fear, -your wife leaves the car. 
2. Anxiety, -your children leave the car. 
3. Panic, -your dog leaves the car. 
4. Depression, -you leave the car and thank Mother Eart for supporting the G. 
99.9% will bail out before point 3.
|
|
| |
|
Ed Mclass
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Vehicle(s): 1958 180a, 2010 GLK, 2000 G 500, 2005 SLK 350
Posts: 1215
| Re: Questions re. Safety Stability Factor and G-class
Your worst hazard will be getting rear-ended by a HONDA! When that happened to me in my 280 GE, my trailer hitch did a number on the HONDA hood and moved it back about 6 inches. My license plate was bent just a little. Trailer hitches get you some respect even if you don't tow anything. |
|
| |
|
macjack
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
| RE: Questions re. Safety Stability Factor and G-class
from what I understand, most rollovers, especially in SUVs, are caused by a sideways slide then running into a solid object at the wheels, effectively "tripping" the car into a roll. This is a pretty unfortunate situation to be in, and after that, you just want a solid box around you, good seatbelts, and maybe airbags. the other sad fact is that in collisions, it becomes a mass vs mass issue, and the large mass of the G's provide a significant protection from the other large masses out there, be they chevy suburbans, snowplows, lightposts, etc.
Seems that if you are wearing your seatbelt in a G, you are quite safe indeed. Though that doesn't mean that safe driving habits should be forgotten. I can't believe the large SUV owners driving like they are in sportscars on the highway.
-macjack |
|
| |
|
Linda in Santa Cruz
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
| Re: Questions re. Safety Stability Factor and G-class
Thanks to all who replied to my post...I do wear my seatbelt, I've never been in a rollover accident, and hope at all costs to avoid one.
I confess I'm a card-carrying member of the 'no-bonehead moves' party, on or off road, so don't worry, macjack, I don't drive my G like a sports car (I have a sports car for that). My concern has just been stability at highway speeds -- reacting to other drivers doing dumb things, not so much about the prospect of rolling my [new-to-me] G while rock-crawling (though that might also hurt!). My original post didn't really make this clear.
Of course, in a collision, physics will win every time. A major reason I owned Mercedes in the past ('74 230, '74 450SL) was for protection, and my recent purchase of a G500 was inspired precisely by its much-loved 'vault' qualities (Just listen to that door close).
Given the thoughtful suggestions in the replies so far, I have been doing my homework. Thanks to Dai's suggestion, I read Benzworld material on safety/stability and watched the spectacular G-class commercial (Kerr's post) quite a few times, learned some interesting things about G-class trucks from those who have seen them in major collisions, and especially I've also learned about the futility of building vehicles to match a particular test criteria, and the uniqueness of actual collisions. Though all SUVs are high enough for me to want to know how the G compares to others, the solid data (as Kerr said) seems to be unavailable. Thanks to Brent for pointing out the G has a lower center of gravity than most SUVs. [How much lower than which ones, and are there any off-road capable SUVs with lower centers of gravity?]
It looks like the ESP automatic stability feature is now preventing a lot of rollovers, making it one of the the most useful innovations in this class.
Thanks to Philip and Harald for the sidebar on the perils of 4X4 courses that create more problems than they solve...I'm waiting for Harald's book now with the rest of you...and planning to avoid the killer 4X4 profs if I can (would that be the offroad academies of LandRover or Jeep, or are we not allowed to say?)
Ed, thanks for the encouraging words about the intimidational powers of my (never-yet-used) trailer hitch -- I knew there had to be a reason it was there when I bought it!
|
|
| |
|
Fenalaar
Elite Veteran
Date registered: May 2006
Location: Narvik, Norway
Vehicle(s): 2001 ML270CDI, Polaris 400L Big Boss
Posts: 826
| Re: Questions re. Safety Stability Factor and G-class
The big lethality problems with SUV rollover accidents are usually caused by MBSWAS - malfunction between steering wheel and seat.
The SUV in itself protects you pretty well by reasons of it's size and mass. An airbag helps too. The overlooked thing is the seat belt, which is what will keep you from being thrown out of the car in a rollover. Since most SUV occupants leave their seat belts dangling - "hey! I'm in such a big, safe car, so what do I need a seatbelt for?", they're thrown out of the car and killed.
The morals are - Keep your seatbelt on, and you're as safe in a G as you can be in almost any car on the road.
Johan-Kr |
|
| |
|
4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| Re: Questions re. Safety Stability Factor and G-class
we need to separate active safety and passive safety.
Active safety starts with the driver and is supported by numerous electronic "helpers" - ABS, BAS, ESP, seat belt tensioners and so on. The G like all other Mercedes-Benz products has every available system incorporated.
Passive safety entails body strength, suspension set up, driver seat ergonomics, seat belts, air bags etc. The center of gravity is one of the vital ones. Ideally, in pavement driving, once traction is lost and the vehicle slides sideways it will keep sliding on all 4. Ideally, even when tripping points (patches with more traction or pavement edges) are hit the vehicle will not tip over. Very low center of gravity cars like sports cars do best.
A high center of gravity is always bad. The G's CG might be a tad lower than on some other big SUVs - but lets face it, its high. A risk of rollover is more present in a G than in an E-Class. In order not to leave the decison on how fast is still safe in a turn with a high center of gravity, the G has ESP (like all other MB). Because of the high center of gravity the G's ESP has a completely different software than MB sedans and acts very early (too early for some G owners who think they could drive a turn 10 mph faster than ESP deems safe).
One of the arguments for ESP is an emergency (panic) reaction of the driver when a sudden obstacle appears on the road. A high center of gravity is detrimental in such maneuver. The electronic helpers do pretty good in keeping the vehicle stable, but a hard yank on the steering at speed (possibly too high a speed) will easily overburden ESP. You might not be rolling, but you'll do a few piruettes.
All systems come with the disclaimer: " Not even the most sophisticated stability program can defy the laws of physics."
Off-road the parameters are completely diffrent. Wrong driver input and driver over reaction will send a 4x4 rolling even at slow speeds and side angles no more than 20 degrees.
Example: granite slab (good traction, no sliding), 20 degrees leaning left, 2 mph, driver hits a crack in the rocks on the downhill (left) side, vehicle moves quickly to 25 degrees, driver gets scared, turns steering uphill (most drivers will do that) and steps on the brake (most drivers will do that as well). The the front left wheel becomes a tripping point because the front wheels are turned right and no longer rolling, plus the inertia of the vehicle will send the rig tumbling over!
That's why I don't like it when manufactureres advertise their vehicles as being safe at 40 degrees (as demonstrated in many schools). Only true on an artificial course with no dynamic (suspension) movement and no possibility for driver misreaction. Real life is harsher.
Edited by 4x4abc 4/18/2007 3:03 PM
|
|
| |
|
KERR
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
| Re: Questions re. Safety Stability Factor and G-class
In terms of "on road" roll overs. I think you would have to leave the road before it "tipps". Im a very agressive driver and i have never had the G lean or even act like it was going to tip. I have had it shift the weight enought in turns under a lot of throttle to lift the front tire enought to make it spinn. The esp then cuts the fuel back until the G is level and the wheel is straight.
As for sliding sideways, we have done this as well on purpose playing on ice and snow. Lock the diffs get the G moving then jerk the wheel and hit the gas.. You can "drift" like a ralley racer if you want, they slide well, Now the quick stop onto dry alsphalt is kind jerking but its never acted like it was going to turn over. Im also a lot taller than most G's with the aftermaket springs and tires.
The only that sorta bothers me is the rear seat to window height.. With two kids in cars seats there is not a lot of protective room.. It seems "IF" there was a roll over at speed one could come out the window a lot easier in a G than other suv's do to the size of the window. Other than that i think they are pretty safe. The outer door skins seem think to me. Mine dent very easy compaired to other mb products...
|
|
| |
|
4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| Re: Questions re. Safety Stability Factor and G-class
Kerr,
are you saying that the child seats are not tied down? |
|
| |
|
Dr. Rob
Veteran
Date registered: Nov 2006
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Vehicle(s): 280GE LWB, 280E Ambulance
Posts: 216
| Re: Questions re. Safety Stability Factor and G-class
Linda, you may need to consult one of the independent companies involved in automotive safety. They operate independently and with / for the automakers and governments. There is little doubt they know the answer to your very well worded questions or know someone who does; it's just a matter of finding the right guy to share it with you.
Try Autoliv for example. They do these tests on a regular basis. If you need a name to get in the door, try Nightingale. Dean Nightingale. I don't know him (only his brother by coincidence) but he's the guy responsible for some of the safety features mentioned above being used today.
Hope that gets you on your way. If not, well... a central insurance company governing body if there is such a thing, maybe?
Doc.
.
|
|
| |
|
Dr. Rob
Veteran
Date registered: Nov 2006
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Vehicle(s): 280GE LWB, 280E Ambulance
Posts: 216
| Re: Questions re. Safety Stability Factor and G-class
"A further question i have is whether G-owners on this list are routinely securing their cargo in the back... to keep it from flying... just trying to be intelligent about life with the G."
Very intelligent, very sensible indeed. Automotive safety is more than just driving. Over here there is a mandatory vehicle safety course with rollover simulation, skidpad tests and cargo carrying elements, as a part of the driving license test.
Might sound sort of ridiculous, but it was very enlightening.
(How is it to get out of a rolled over vehicle? A: Pretty darn difficult, not like TV.
What happens to an unfastened case of bottled beverages in a collision @ 50 mph? A: It smashes your skull through the steering wheel that's what.
How long is your braking distance on rainy asphalt? A: About twice as far as you think.
Etc.)
Education; always the best step.
. |
|
| |
|
Maxwell Smart
Date registered: Dec 1899
Location:
Vehicle(s):
| RE: Questions re. Safety Stability Factor and G-class
Linda in Santa Cruz - 4/16/2007 10:35 AM
A further question i have is whether G-owners on this list are routinely securing their cargo in the back with a net, with bungee cords or tie-downs using the rings, or using a (tied-down) trunk or closed bin of some kind (if this option, which kind is good)? I am assuming the roller-cover is just to keep cargo out of sight, rather than to keep it from flying.
Speaking of which does anybody have the part number for the OEM MB cargo net? I think it may be B6 765 0016 but can't confirm.
The matts that are in my G are as slick as an ice rink. |
|
| |
