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VonEpp
W124 Host
Date registered: Sep 2006
Location: Australia
Vehicle(s): w114, w124 & w460
Posts: 357
| Spring Rates: W460
Just wondering if anyone has had a chance to experiment different spring rates on their W460?
I just love the way my 300GD handles (just needs to performance to go with it now!), but a slightly smoother ride would really improve my dirt road comfort, I'm sure you can imagine the damage the recent rain up here has done to the freshly graded roads.
I have already got new Sachs shocks with the OE 1983 springs. |
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Boy G
Expert
Date registered: Feb 2007
Location: Bushveld, South Africa
Vehicle(s): Diesel G's: 617A and 602
Posts: 1683
| Re: Spring Rates: W460
Hi Von Epp,
I think you and I travel the same type of roads. I have fiddled a lot with my suspension. I'm sure you know which colour code springs you have on at present, and that the springs are tapered thinner at the ends of the coils. If they are 1983 originals they may have sagged so much that the soft part of the spring (tapered part) no longer functions or the first winding of the coil is broken off completely (very common problem and MBSA actually advise changing every 100 000km. Jack the truck body up by the tow hitch to check.)
With code lilac or yellow (softer springs) I have enjoyed the ride quality with gas filled Sachs shocks, but the loadability I dont like on a LWB.
On my low speed "toy" (300d cabrio) I have just fitted new lilac or yellows with some quite hard gas filled Bilsteins. This lifts the vehicle about 15mm and is fine for what I do.
On my 290 I have got code white which are much harder and do not work well with gas filled Bilsteins - it is just too hard. I have now got the standard Sachs oil filled shocks on. Also I have always run my tyres at less than 2bar on dirt - the handbook pressures are killers for me - maybe ok in the cold. I have just come back from a trip where I did more than 1300km of dirt roads - most of it at 100km/hr+ in 4 high with this recipe, and it worked well.
In a nutshell my butt tells me, almost irrespective of springs its the shocks that count, and the standard oil filled Sachs shocks get my money. Obviously your springs must not be flat or broken.
Amzimmy posted some more technical stuff, graphs etc on gwagenclub.co.za and go to gallery.
Rgds.
Edited by Boy G 4/24/2007 6:12 AM
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VonEpp
W124 Host
Date registered: Sep 2006
Location: Australia
Vehicle(s): w114, w124 & w460
Posts: 357
| Re: Spring Rates: W460
Thanks - a great post.
I think I might try and replace the springs with Lilac or Yellow - just need something a tad softer. Good advice on tire pressures too; I like to go much lower in sand or on difficult terrain but I've always stayed over 2 bar for day-to-day usage. |
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4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| Re: Spring Rates: W460
about shocks
there is no "gas filled" or "oil filled"
all of them are oil filled
the valving inside determines whether they are hard or soft
the valving also determines whether compression and rebound are equal or not (hard on compression and soft on rebound for example)
gas is added to most shocks to pressurize the oil to prevent it from foaming (foaming oil does not have any dampening ability) - if the pressure is kept high (most Bilsteins) it amkes the shock action rougher (in addition to the valving) I agree with Andrew, the heavy duty Sachs are probably the best choice for 460 G |
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Boy G
Expert
Date registered: Feb 2007
Location: Bushveld, South Africa
Vehicle(s): Diesel G's: 617A and 602
Posts: 1683
| Re: Spring Rates: W460
Harald
That's interesting thanks - what makes some shocks (Bilsteins eg) self extend and others not? Ie they supply some spring action. I have had some Sachs with and some without - is this also just a function of anti foaming gas quantity?
Edited by Boy G 4/24/2007 12:10 PM
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4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| Re: Spring Rates: W460
with high gas pressure the shock will self extend when not mounted in place (or held by some strap when new out of the box)
not self extending = dead shock or one with no gas pressure
high gas pressure guarantees (aside from the anti foaming action) a quick rebound. Good for performance cars - it keeps the
tires on the ground (traction!)
That's the main reason why we have shocks. Springs will soften the ride but they will also make the wheel bounce a couple of
times once they are compressed. So, the shock does not absorb shock - it dampens the spring action, reduces the bounce effect, thus keeping the wheels on the ground.
If the wheels would be bouncing, the would be part of the time in the air or put the tire with less pressure on the ground - both
result in less traction. Imagine bouncing wheels while you are attempting a fast turn. Less traction = visit the ditch (or worse hug a tree).
Edited by 4x4abc 4/24/2007 1:00 PM
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hus55
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: north cyprus,lapta.
Vehicle(s): 300GDS, G300 LONG,300GDT CLK55 AMG CAB.
Posts: 2230
| RE: Spring Rates: W460
wow....! great topic.....
short and sweet and straight to the point with minimum 
i have just fitted coils to my G after i found out one of my rear springs was snapped in one place and the other in two places.i brought a new set of non-original springs sold by a german company called "suplex", i think they were fabricated in the uk though,which is another story......well the rears seem taller than the originals and the fronts that came 2 inches shorter than the originals!!!! 19" compared to "21".the g loked like a dragster 
well they were replaced in the end and the g sits and rides well for £240 it cost me.
are the gaps in the wheels ok harald,when measuring from the centre of the alloy to the bottom edge of the plastic wheel arch?
fr =52.5cm
rr+53.5cm
rgds hussein.
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petermerle
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Cape Town ( deep south )
Vehicle(s): W460 *1, W123 *2, W124
Posts: 1315
| Re: Spring Rates: W460
How firm are the OEM Rear sachs shocks when you have them loose and you push on them with you own body weight? I found them surprisingly soft and wondered if they were in fact faulty. Any comments?
Peter |
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thairish
Date registered: Jun 2006
Location: hk/th
Vehicle(s): 461: 230ge/swb & g300cdi/lwb
| Re: Spring Rates: W460
very informative -- thanks harald. i had heard something about gas vs. oil shock thing and was meaning to ask here for clarification.
von epp: my w461/swb springs are rear-white & front-red. part of a factory option package 'for roads in bad condition'. kind of unusual perhaps (haven't seen anyone post saying they have this same combo) and not sure this will work as well on a lwb like yours, but i have no complaints and will stick with the same set up when the time comes to replace original parts. |
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hakkaloong
Member
Date registered: Jul 2006
Location: malaysia
Vehicle(s): '94 290GD
Posts: 29
| Re: Spring Rates: W460
Dear All,
As we are in the topic of coil spring/spring rate, anyone out there can give comments on SACHS springs as direct replacement to MB springs?
I found SACHS listed spring # 997696 & 996050 is equivalent to MB # A460 321 0204 & A460 324 0304 respectively. I refer this to my own SWB 230GE which have green & amber(yellow) code spring. Perhaps this may has been discussed here earlier which I have probably missed the thread.
1. SACHS spring for G is progressive type?
2. SACHS spring has the same spring rate as MB or can I say it's direct replacement of MB?
3. Ride height would not be affected with SACHS spring fitted?
I lately fitted King springs to my SWB but found it's a bit stiff for my ride perhaps the King's design is for the laden LWB G.
The SACHS spring could save me approx. 40% of the cost compared with MB spring overhere in Malaysia.
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4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| Re: Spring Rates: W460
Drew,
white rear and red front is the factory recomended setup (lwb & swb) - it had been reflected on my spring lift page for some years now: http://4x4abc.com/G/35.html |
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460332
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Europe
Vehicle(s):
| Re: Spring Rates: W460
I use these, very good!
http://www.koni.com/index.php?id=55
http://www.koni.com/index.php?id=56
http://www.koni.com/index.php?id=254 |
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4x4abc
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: La Paz, Baja California, Mexico
Vehicle(s): 02 G500
| Re: Spring Rates: W460
G.J.,
could you reflect on why you like the Koni shocks? How are they "good"?
What's the difference to other shocks you have experience with?
Do you have a suspension lift? Larger tires? |
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thairish
Date registered: Jun 2006
Location: hk/th
Vehicle(s): 461: 230ge/swb & g300cdi/lwb
| Re: Spring Rates: W460
i probably read that page on your site a while ago. good to go back and look again, even though i am not fitting 35" tires -- thanks for the link.
in your recommended lwb set up, does 'hard' and 'soft' correlate to the number of colored stripes on the springs? and just curious -- why soft-rear & hard front for whites, but the opposite for reds, hard-rear & soft front?
for lwb:
rear springs:
front springs
white
460 324 05 04 (soft) rear
460 321 04 04 (hard) front
or
red
460 324 08 04 (hard) rear
460 321 05 04 (soft) front
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dai
Expert
Date registered: Apr 2006
Location: Oregon USA
Vehicle(s): 300GD 300TD BMW R100RS Landini 80F
Posts: 2110
| Re: Spring Rates: W460
Tharish, the colors for the rear do not really relate to the colors on the front. The white spring choice for the front is much stiffer than the red front spring when it is loaded. The rear red spring is by far the stiffest choice. Try to find examples of the spring charts to see what they do under load. I think that on the old forum the charts were posted on "more on springs'. The colors are for ID for that axle and do not have relationship to the other axle. There is no "green" or "lilac" spring choice for the front axle, for example. Look at the spring chart and draw a line up from around the 5200 Nm point. That will show the separation of the springs under the load of the vehicle. G springs are confusing and every step up in stiffness and load bearing strength also creates lift of the entire chassis. Whites and reds are among the hardest choices for both axles.
For the front from softest to hardest are: yellow, brown, yellow/orange, red, white and blue
For the rear from softest to hardest are: Green, yellow, yellow/orange, brown, white, lilac, and way up there is red.
The springs response to load changes as the spring choice on the chart gets stiffer. The softer springs sag faster than the harder ones. I hope this helps a bit.
-Dai |
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