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| DesertStar Expert Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: San Diego, CA USA Vehicle(s): 85-280GE/95-G320/08-G500 Posts: 2156  | ||
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| Re: warm up compensator for M110 engine I see lot's of pictures from different books here, but mainly general ones. They explain a lot but your (anybody's) wur or cis may just work totaly different. I have a important pic to show you about how my CIS on my Europe MB 280TE works. There are 2 more pic's of random wur's: one with a "gold" connection and one picture with an aluminum connection (molded together with the housing). These pic's explain a lot: the gold connection is were you put a real pressure hose (the real vacuum (from the manifold)) and de molded one is made tipical for a rubber connection (no clamb needed here). Another important picture is pic1.jpg on the first page of this topic. There you see the atmosferic connection from the rubber contour hose Y distrubutor to the wur (component E) and de damper (component D). Yes, there is a little suction but for instance for the damper this little vacuum makes no difference. (Inside the damper there is a ferm spring. The little vacuum realy makes no difference). The little suction is only to have a constant positive vacuum preventing air (containing a little water) to come in to the wur or the backside of the damper. I you have questions or would like to discuss, i'm al yours. Groet, Jules Edited by Jules 2/24/2009 6:04 AM (k-jet MB 001.jpg) (gold-vacuumconnection.jpg) (atmosferic connection.jpg) Attachments ----------------  k-jet MB 001.jpg (45KB - 4 downloads) gold-vacuumconnection.jpg (8KB - 2 downloads) atmosferic connection.jpg (18KB - 3 downloads) | ||
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| Re: warm up compensator for M110 engine @elevatorbernie; That's the way to do it --> testing and measuring! The reason you got a better pressure by experimenting with different connections is maybe because of the fact that u have a good function wur but a wrong one for your car. That was the problem i had. Eventually (after a lot of work and time) i visited the Mercedes dealer and gave the chassisnumber. And voila the good wur had to be the 103 instead of the 057 some else had put in before me. I've added a few pictures: my test-setting (i removed the fueldamper BTW), the actual controlpressure (51 psi or 3.4 Bar) of the (good functioning wur but wrong one) number 057 and a picture i found in a German W123 forum from someone with a detail picture of the vacuum connection on a 103. The highest controlpressure (with vacuum connected and warm motor running idle) for the current wur (103) is 56 psi (3.7 Bar). That's good! There is a site called specialtauto.com where u may find your wur to see if u got the good one. Below the pictures there is info about the cars they fit. Edited by Jules 2/24/2009 7:12 AM (stuurdruk meter aansluiting 280TE.JPG) (stuurdruk met vacuum 280TE WLR 0438140057.JPG) (wur 103 vacuum connection.jpg) Attachments ---------------- stuurdruk meter aansluiting 280TE.JPG (421KB - 5 downloads) stuurdruk met vacuum 280TE WLR 0438140057.JPG (333KB - 3 downloads) wur 103 vacuum connection.jpg (226KB - 3 downloads) | ||
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| DesertStar Expert Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: San Diego, CA USA Vehicle(s): 85-280GE/95-G320/08-G500 Posts: 2156 | RE: warm up compensator for M110 engine Well after reading my M110 manual dated 1983, I have found that in 1981 the WUR was changed. The 1981 and later WUR has vacuum connections that are reverse of the prior one. You can see in the diagrams/photos below how each is applicable. Bernie, also note there is a WUR like yours which has provisions for accelleration enrichment...maybe you do have the right one ? Mike (IMG_0224 [800x600].JPG) (IMG_0221 [800x600].JPG) (IMG_0222 [800x600].JPG) (IMG_0223 [800x600].JPG) (IMG_0216 [800x600].JPG) (IMG_0217 [800x600].JPG) (IMG_0218 [800x600].JPG) Attachments ---------------- IMG_0224 [800x600].JPG (70KB - 4 downloads) IMG_0221 [800x600].JPG (47KB - 3 downloads) IMG_0222 [800x600].JPG (58KB - 4 downloads) IMG_0223 [800x600].JPG (55KB - 4 downloads) IMG_0216 [800x600].JPG (57KB - 6 downloads) IMG_0217 [800x600].JPG (49KB - 5 downloads) IMG_0218 [800x600].JPG (54KB - 5 downloads) | |
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hipine Date registered: Jul 2006 Location: US, CO, Bailey Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A  | ||
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| elevatorbernie Expert Date registered: Aug 2006 Location: Vancouver B.C. Canada Vehicle(s): 1989 280GE Posts: 1347  | RE: warm up compensator for M110 engine Now were getting somewhere, good work, a team effort and good pics Mike, my M110 manaul doesn't have that info.....now let's explain my last WUR mystery..... this picture of a WUR from the MB G manual could it be just a generic picture? 3 ports and 3 inner springs, also like Mike's M110 manual pic. Where does the manifold vac line go? My WUR looks exactly like it, my manifold hose had been hooked up on #1 but I moved it to #3 and placed the atmosphereic line to #1... would that be right and then what would go on port #2? ( The G seems to work well....I pulled a loaded trailer on the freeway at 110 km/h for an hour this weekend good power..... however it uses more gas now) Edited by elevatorbernie 2/25/2009 12:44 AM (WUR_pic_from_the_G_manual_(Small).jpg) (IMG_0216_[800x600].JPG) Attachments ---------------- WUR_pic_from_the_G_manual_(Small).jpg (43KB - 3 downloads) IMG_0216_[800x600].JPG (57KB - 2 downloads) | |
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| elevatorbernie Expert Date registered: Aug 2006 Location: Vancouver B.C. Canada Vehicle(s): 1989 280GE Posts: 1347 | ||
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| hipine Date registered: Jul 2006 Location: US, CO, Bailey Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A | ||
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| elevatorbernie Expert Date registered: Aug 2006 Location: Vancouver B.C. Canada Vehicle(s): 1989 280GE Posts: 1347 | RE: warm up compensator for M110 engine hipine - 2/24/2009 9:40 PM Here's the results I got with the vacuum pump. Port 3 ("B" in my pic) it's open and works it's (not plugged), I have hooked it there now, maybe I should be on #2 ("C")?elevatorbernie - 2/24/2009 9:30 PM Now were getting somewhere, good work, a team effort and good pics Mike, my M110 manaul doesn't have that info.....now let's explain my last WUR mystery..... this picture of a WUR from the MB G manual? 3 ports and 3 inner springs, like Mike's M110 manual pic. Where does the manifold vac line go? My WUR looks exactly like the one in Mike's pic, my manifold hose had been hooked up on #1 but I moved it to #3 and placed the atmosphereic line to #1... would that be right and what would go on port #2? ( The G seems to work well....I pulled a loaded trailer on the freeway at 110 km/h for an hour this weekend good power..... however it uses more gas now) Manifold vaccum connection has to go to the "connection to upper chamber". On the old WUR that was the connection on the top face. On the new WUR it's one of the side ports. As it turns out, it's the one labeled "1" in the picture in your post. The manifold vacuum connection has to exert upward pressure (to increase control pressure by preventing flow back to the tank) in normal driving conditions, and NOT exert that pressure under full load (little or no vacuum) to result in decreased control pressure via more flow back to the tank. It can only do this function when connected to the top side of the inner chamber diaphragm. -Dave G. PS with port 1 vented as you have now you essentially have full load enrichment all the time. Good power yes, but low fuel economy. The vaccum line hooked to port 3 doesn't have anything to act on and so is essentially just plugged. Edited by elevatorbernie 2/25/2009 12:59 AM (IMG_(Small).jpg) Attachments ---------------- IMG_(Small).jpg (36KB - 2 downloads) | |
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| hipine Date registered: Jul 2006 Location: US, CO, Bailey Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A | ||
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| elevatorbernie Expert Date registered: Aug 2006 Location: Vancouver B.C. Canada Vehicle(s): 1989 280GE Posts: 1347 | ||
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| elevatorbernie Expert Date registered: Aug 2006 Location: Vancouver B.C. Canada Vehicle(s): 1989 280GE Posts: 1347 | RE: warm up compensator for M110 engine hipine - 2/24/2009 10:05 PM Dave, here's how I tapped the guage in also the engine was warm and running when I tested and as I said to Jules, I left the fuel damper in the circuit. Maybe the damper affected the readings or the wur is broken inside....something doesn't make sense.Are you referring to your sketch of some posts above that lists what happened to control pressure when you put 17in vac on each port with others vented? That one still has me baffled. Applying vacuum to the port "1" (aka "a" in cutaway views) should ONLY increase the control pressure, never decrease it. Where is your control pressure gauge tapped in? In the location that J. shows in his pix? -Dave G. PS yes now I see the diagram here. And yes, "by the book" your manifold vacuum should be hooked to your "C" port (and to your "A" port with a restrictor if you want it to act like the book describes) , but as I say, applying vacuum to "C" should raise CP, not drop it. You should have low CP with all three vented, then rising CP as you apply vac to "C" with the others vented. Edited by elevatorbernie 2/25/2009 1:58 AM (control pressure hook up 001 (Small).jpg) Attachments ---------------- control pressure hook up 001 (Small).jpg (45KB - 2 downloads) | |
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| hipine Date registered: Jul 2006 Location: US, CO, Bailey Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A | RE: warm up compensator for M110 engine elevatorbernie - 2/24/2009 11:26 PM ...Dave, here's how I tapped the guage in also the engine was warm and running when I tested and as I said to Jules, I left the fuel damper in the circuit. Maybe the damper affected the readings or the wur is broken inside....something doesn't make sense. I think it's more likely that there's just something about how it functions that we're overlooking. I think your WUR is probably ok and just needs to be hooked up with port C to manifold and B to atmosphere to work pretty much correctly. Bram even noted that the MB descriptions of control presure show it falling with vacuum aplication as the standard test is performed. WHY that is, I don't know and AFAIK Bram never figured it out either, but it seems to be correct per the manual's description of what to expect from the test procedure. When he got his connections sorted he got results in line with what the book said they should be, even though he didn't understand why they'd say CP should fall with vacuum application Beddy-bye time for now.  -Dave G, | |
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| elevatorbernie Expert Date registered: Aug 2006 Location: Vancouver B.C. Canada Vehicle(s): 1989 280GE Posts: 1347 | RE: warm up compensator for M110 engine hipine - 2/24/2009 10:56 PM I bought a great little MB education/ mechanic trainning manual, circa 1980, the wur is different but the theory is the same. They use the term counterpressure to describe control pressure. It helped me understand how it works. So if I use this info and apply it to the results I got from the tests I did in the G manual (results on my sketch). My conclusion is the wur is broken or wrong part, because I get a control pressure of 3.6 bar with the vacuum line removed. The problem is this reading of 3.6 bar is in spec. for normal warm idle control pressure. With the vacuum line removed I should be full load enrichment mode with a lower "counter" control pressure (2.8-3.2 according to MB's G manual). A lower pressure from the WUR reduces the counterpressure restricting the control plunger and allowing the air sensor plate to drop more than it would for the amount of air flowing on it at that moment....making the mixture rich. It works in theory the same as the warm-up heater....mixture is normally rich until something stops it from being so. Vacuum pressure at idle keeps it lean.... the WUR's valve diaphram sucks open and overcomes the spring resistance.....normal control pressure......underload you lose vacuum.....allowing the spring to close the valve....lower control pressure and your back to the normal rich . Best $3.50 I ever spent on ebay. I still don't know which WUR I need or which port to hook the vacuum up to but I think I understand it now. elevatorbernie - 2/24/2009 11:26 PM ...Dave, here's how I tapped the guage in also the engine was warm and running when I tested and as I said to Jules, I left the fuel damper in the circuit. Maybe the damper affected the readings or the wur is broken inside....something doesn't make sense. I think it's more likely that there's just something about how it functions that we're overlooking. I think your WUR is probably ok and just needs to be hooked up with port C to manifold and B to atmosphere to work pretty much correctly. Bram even noted that the MB descriptions of control presure show it falling with vacuum aplication as the standard test is performed. WHY that is, I don't know and AFAIK Bram never figured it out either, but it seems to be correct per the manual's description of what to expect from the test procedure. When he got his connections sorted he got results in line with what the book said they should be, even though he didn't understand why they'd say CP should fall with vacuum application Beddy-bye time for now. -Dave G, Edited by elevatorbernie 2/25/2009 3:59 AM (cis wur full load function.jpg) (cis full load function.jpg) Attachments ---------------- cis wur full load function.jpg (30KB - 3 downloads) cis full load function.jpg (31KB - 2 downloads) | |
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| DesertStar Expert Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: San Diego, CA USA Vehicle(s): 85-280GE/95-G320/08-G500 Posts: 2156 | RE: warm up compensator for M110 engine I should have included the rest of the pages to image 216. Here they are. It shows that those two side ports go to manifold vacuum BUT one line has a "choke" on it. Also note that these pages are from a sedan manual and not cross country. Mike (IMG_0226 [800x600].JPG) (IMG_0227 [800x600].JPG) (IMG_0228 [800x600].JPG) Attachments ---------------- IMG_0226 [800x600].JPG (63KB - 4 downloads) IMG_0227 [800x600].JPG (58KB - 4 downloads) IMG_0228 [800x600].JPG (51KB - 3 downloads) | |
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| elevatorbernie Expert Date registered: Aug 2006 Location: Vancouver B.C. Canada Vehicle(s): 1989 280GE Posts: 1347 | ||
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| DesertStar Expert Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: San Diego, CA USA Vehicle(s): 85-280GE/95-G320/08-G500 Posts: 2156 | ||
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| fernweh Date registered: Apr 2006 Location: Calabasas, CA - Centenario, BCS - Luebeck, Germany Vehicle(s): Few Mercedes-Benz, a Toyota Amphibious and a Vespa | RE: warm up compensator for M110 engine DesertStar - 2/25/2009 1:56 AM Scan ? what's that ? Just kidding. I will be getting a scanner in a few weeks and will get with you. There is a lot of information in the manuals. I wish I would have got them when I first bought my G, even though sedan oriented, a good deal of it is applicable on the older Gs. Your G probably has more differences that would not crossover to other MB models, being a later model and all and of which the M110 was not used in the sedan line. My manual does show all the variations of the carbed versions of the seventies up to the different versions of the EFI to 1983. Mike Hey guys, it is just wonderful to see how you are able to tackle this WUR problem. I remember dealing with those issues in the early Eighties and somehow a quick fix was a blunt blow with a hammer & punch........  All the complex vacuum control systems were even worst in the late type carburetor engines, but now in the G-500's everything is controlled by a (hopefully) smart computer residing in the ECU's.... BTW I do believe I still have an original Bosch fuel pressure gauge with three-way valve and so on and I thinking of selling this tool. If anybody is interested please contact me via PM or email. I'll try to dig it up and post a picture here. Karl | |
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| hipine Date registered: Jul 2006 Location: US, CO, Bailey Vehicle(s): 460 1980 280GE w. 617A | RE: warm up compensator for M110 engine elevatorbernie - 2/25/2009 1:20 AM ....I bought a great little MB education/ mechanic trainning manual, circa 1980, the wur is different but the theory is the same. .... The only trouble with this manual is it doesn't show the 3rd port to the upper chamber (it's for old-syle WUR), so yo uhave to extrapolate a little. The pictures and descriptions in Mike's book are lots more direct and correct for the later model you have. (and the 3-port WUR is for K-jet, absolutely) I translated the german on the little diagram picture 8 from Brams post way up above. It has "Actuating Pressure" on the left axis and "Vacuum Tube Pressure" on the horizontal axis. When read this way, the "vacuum pressure" has to be read as absolute pressure, not gauge pressure vs atmosphere. So the lower numbers farther to the right on the horizontal axis are actually "more vaccum" or lower absolute pressure. When read this way, the graph makes perfect sense. Applying vacuum raises control pressure. The thing that still has me bugged is that broken or not, I can't understand how it's possible to lower the control pressure by applying vacuum to your port C with all others open to atmosphere. That bit is really intriguing. Unfortunately I think the only way to be sure you have the best and correct WUR for your engine is by the engine number. Accepting a "well this one is basically the same" unit from some car or off the dealer's shelf will always leave questions of whether it's right or not. Unfortunate because as we know about G-specific engine stuff, it means $$$.  -Dave G. Edited by hipine 2/25/2009 10:17 AM | |
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